3 replies to this topic

[Todd Reed]

Played a small game to see the rules in action, just the basic rules. I don't have minis yet so I used my Memoir 44 pieces and the terrain tiles. I had a 3 PZ IV platoons and 3 Sherman platoons. Crushing German victory - played it solo.I simply cut out the markers provided and used them as is. One question though. You have to keep track if a stand moved in it's last activation, therefore you have to keep a marker on any units that moved in their last turn. So, you can't keep the "Activated Moved" marker on it as you move into a new turn because the unit hasn't activated in the new turn - though it did move in it's last activation. Is this where the colored pins or beads come into play?2. When a Unit activates, (lets say the 5 tank sherman platoons) - can 2 tanks move and 3 tanks shoot?3. Also, am I understanding "In Command" to mean each unit only has to be within 2" of just one other stand from their unit? For example, from #2: could those 2 tanks that moved and are more than 2" away from their 3 peers that shot still be in command if they're within 2" of each other?4. How do players keep track of units in a game? When the battle gets close in, seems like it could be difficult to remember which stands went with which stands.5. Please verify: Bonus moves can be split? For example, with the Sherman, that is in command: I could move 2" bonus move, then fire him, then move 2" more inches?Overall experience was fun. Pretty simplistic using just the basic rules (been learning ASLSKs, so just about anything is easy compared to that). I'm going to play another small one, this time with some advanced rules. I'm looking forward to adding infantry and guns.Bonus #6 - this question may answer itself when I played advanced - why would one of the two tanks I play shoot HT vs AP? The HT value is so much lower - so I'm not sure the benefit?

[Mark 1]

I'm not one of the ODGW team ... just another gamer who plays the MP rules. So my word has no "legal standing" in the court of MP justice. However, here is how I would approach the issues you have described.todd.jayhawk wrote:

One question though. You have to keep track if a stand moved in it's last activation, therefore you have to keep a marker on any units that moved in their last turn. So, you can't keep the "Activated Moved" marker on it as you move into a new turn because the unit hasn't activated in the new turn - though it did move in it's last activation. Is this where the colored pins or beads come into play?

We never track who did or did not move. Only which units activated. Since all of a units activities are completed in the short span of the activation, we don't have any trouble tracking which unit did or did not move. This is one of the main differences in the game structure of MP -- in other rules you might move 15 out of 20 tanks, then decide which of the 20 will shoot, and it is easy to loose track of who moved and who didn't. In MP you move and shoot 3 or 5 tanks, and it is easy to recall which ones did or did not move when the time comes to shoot.At the end of the turn you remove all activation markers. There should be none left on the table when the turn starts.As to tracking from one turn to the next ... why do that? We've never bothered. Did I miss something in the rules saying I need to know who moved last turn? I think the only reason I need to know is to make sure my opponent uses the proper modifications for his shooting, no? Somehow we've always managed to know that without markers on the table.

2. When a Unit activates, (lets say the 5 tank sherman platoons) - can 2 tanks move and 3 tanks shoot?

Yes.

3. Also, am I understanding "In Command" to mean each unit only has to be within 2" of just one other stand from their unit? For example, from #2: could those 2 tanks that moved and are more than 2" away from their 3 peers that shot still be in command if they're within 2" of each other?

To be "In Command" the tank (or stand) in question must be able to trace a line back to its command element. Let's say 2 tanks advance 3 inches, while 3 (including the CO) remain stationary, then the 2 that have advanced will be out of command. But if another of the platoon's tanks advances 1 or 2 inches, then the two that are 3 inches away can trace a line of platoon-mates, each within command distance, back to the CO.

4. How do players keep track of units in a game? When the battle gets close in, seems like it could be difficult to remember which stands went with which stands.

This is one of the reaons I like MP so much. The game mechanics force you to think in terms of formations, not just individual tanks or stands. You will find that you come to know your platoons pretty well as you play, since you play them by platoon. Those particular 5 Shermans always move and shoot together (at the same time), and so you come to see them as a platoon. Yet there is no overhead of record-keeping or flags or special markings on the units necessary to achieve this. It is just a natural part of the game.The one thing that I do find it necessary to keep track of is which vehicles/stands are the platoon and company commanders. This is easily enough done during the modelling of the units. There are two approaches I take -- either marking them when painting, or doing some specific modelling to make the command units different. Some examples follow:This is a company of US M3 Medium Tanks that I use for French North Africa 1942/43 (one of my favorite theaters for wargaming). In this case the command tanks have stars painted on their hulls, while non-command tanks only have stars on their turrets. This is quite obvious to me, but if you didn't know, it would not be obvious to you which ones were the command vehicles.With my Soviet SU-152s I have put open hatches with visible commanders in the command vehicles. This approach is a bit more obvious on the game table, and so I risk having an opponent deliberately target the CO vehicles. But history shows that the command tanks were more obvious in Soviet formations (by their actions), and so I accept this risk as an added "reality" without needing special rules.Here is a picture of some of my Italian infantry in action. (My Italians are painted in their continental uniforms as used in Tunisia, Sicily and the Eastern Front, not the tropical uniforms used in the Western Desert). If you look closely, you can find a Platoon CO squad near the middle of the picture. It is marked with 3 brown dots on the back of the stand. The marknig is clear and obvious to me, seated behind the formation. It is very low visibility to my opponent, seated in front of them. (Until they turn around to run away, that is...).On the other hand, with my Romanian infantry I have specific Platoon CO stands. They aren't marked, as they look visibly different. The rifle squads (in front) have four figures, including an LMG team. The command stand (in the center in the back) has only 3 figures, including a prone figure with binoculars, and a command/officer figure (pointing with an empty hand).

5. Please verify: Bonus moves can be split? For example, with the Sherman, that is in command: I could move 2" bonus move, then fire him, then move 2" more inches?

Correct.

Bonus #6 - this question may answer itself when I played advanced - why would one of the two tanks I play shoot HT vs AP? The HT value is so much lower - so I'm not sure the benefit?

With the basic rules you don't yet see that penetration is affected by range. With the advanced rules your AP rounds diminish in their penetration capabilities as range increases. But your HT rounds are constant in their penetrative power. This makes them very useful for engagements in particular range bands, where their lower likelyhood of hitting is over-balanced by their enhanced likelyhood of killing.Other than that, the main value of HT rounds was in low-velocity guns that did not have very good AP performance. For example the German short 75mm gun (the L24 in the early Pz IVs and StuGs) was no great shakes on AP, but was notably better for HT. Once you get to a long-barreled and powerful gun, like the L43 or L48 gun in later Pz IVs, HT becomes a projectile with very limited utility.And that is as it should be, for that is as it was.

Overall experience was fun. Pretty simplistic using just the basic rules (been learning ASLSKs, so just about anything is easy compared to that). I'm going to play another small one, this time with some advanced rules. I'm looking forward to adding infantry and guns.

I find that the infantry rules in MP play particularly well. I am very impressed by the feel of combined arms games.If you would like, you might read my series of AARs for the first several MP games our group played. In particular the first AAR discusses some of the observations we had on the basic rules vs. the advanced rules. We moved to advanced rules very quickly, and were much happier with the results.Hope that helps.-Mark 1

[gregoryk]

mark1 wrote:

I'm not one of the ODGW team ... just another gamer who plays the MP rules. So my word has no "legal standing" in the court of MP justice. However, here is how I would approach the issues you have described.todd.jayhawk wrote:

One question though. You have to keep track if a stand moved in it's last activation, therefore you have to keep a marker on any units that moved in their last turn. So, you can't keep the "Activated Moved" marker on it as you move into a new turn because the unit hasn't activated in the new turn - though it did move in it's last activation. Is this where the colored pins or beads come into play?

We never track who did or did not move. Only which units activated. Since all of a units activities are completed in the short span of the activation, we don't have any trouble tracking which unit did or did not move. This is one of the main differences in the game structure of MP -- in other rules you might move 15 out of 20 tanks, then decide which of the 20 will shoot, and it is easy to loose track of who moved and who didn't. In MP you move and shoot 3 or 5 tanks, and it is easy to recall which ones did or did not move when the time comes to shoot.At the end of the turn you remove all activation markers. There should be none left on the table when the turn starts.As to tracking from one turn to the next ... why do that? We've never bothered. Did I miss something in the rules saying I need to know who moved last turn? I think the only reason I need to know is to make sure my opponent uses the proper modifications for his shooting, no? Somehow we've always managed to know that without markers on the table.

We use a handy mnemonic for determining which units and/or stands moved in the previous turn, before they are activated in the current turn. Flip over the activation marker at the end of each turn, and you will then know to apply the moving penalty to shots at the vehicle.

2. When a Unit activates, (lets say the 5 tank sherman platoons) - can 2 tanks move and 3 tanks shoot?

Yes.

3. Also, am I understanding "In Command" to mean each unit only has to be within 2" of just one other stand from their unit? For example, from #2: could those 2 tanks that moved and are more than 2" away from their 3 peers that shot still be in command if they're within 2" of each other?

To be "In Command" the tank (or stand) in question must be able to trace a line back to its command element. Let's say 2 tanks advance 3 inches, while 3 (including the CO) remain stationary, then the 2 that have advanced will be out of command. But if another of the platoon's tanks advances 1 or 2 inches, then the two that are 3 inches away can trace a line of platoon-mates, each within command distance, back to the CO.

4. How do players keep track of units in a game? When the battle gets close in, seems like it could be difficult to remember which stands went with which stands.

This is one of the reaons I like MP so much. The game mechanics force you to think in terms of formations, not just individual tanks or stands. You will find that you come to know your platoons pretty well as you play, since you play them by platoon. Those particular 5 Shermans always move and shoot together (at the same time), and so you come to see them as a platoon. Yet there is no overhead of record-keeping or flags or special markings on the units necessary to achieve this. It is just a natural part of the game.The one thing that I do find it necessary to keep track of is which vehicles/stands are the platoon and company commanders. This is easily enough done during the modelling of the units. There are two approaches I take -- either marking them when painting, or doing some specific modelling to make the command units different. Some examples follow:[snip]

5. Please verify: Bonus moves can be split? For example, with the Sherman, that is in command: I could move 2" bonus move, then fire him, then move 2" more inches?

Correct.

Bonus #6 - this question may answer itself when I played advanced - why would one of the two tanks I play shoot HT vs AP? The HT value is so much lower - so I'm not sure the benefit?

With the basic rules you don't yet see that penetration is affected by range. With the advanced rules your AP rounds diminish in their penetration capabilities as range increases. But your HT rounds are constant in their penetrative power. This makes them very useful for engagements in particular range bands, where their lower likelyhood of hitting is over-balanced by their enhanced likelyhood of killing.Other than that, the main value of HT rounds was in low-velocity guns that did not have very good AP performance. For example the German short 75mm gun (the L24 in the early Pz IVs and StuGs) was no great shakes on AP, but was notably better for HT. Once you get to a long-barreled and powerful gun, like the L43 or L48 gun in later Pz IVs, HT becomes a projectile with very limited utility.And that is as it should be, for that is as it was.

Overall experience was fun. Pretty simplistic using just the basic rules (been learning ASLSKs, so just about anything is easy compared to that). I'm going to play another small one, this time with some advanced rules. I'm looking forward to adding infantry and guns.

I find that the infantry rules in MP play particularly well. I am very impressed by the feel of combined arms games.If you would like, you might read my series of AARs for the first several MP games our group played. In particular the first AAR discusses some of the observations we had on the basic rules vs. the advanced rules. We moved to advanced rules very quickly, and were much happier with the results.

Very correct answers. Mark has become our new answer man — thanks!Cheers,Gregory

[Todd Reed]

thank you for the answers mark1. command - totally missed that and didn't play with any command units at all. I don't even remember reading about a CO. Obviously I got the 2" rule, but not anything about having a unit/stand.I'll check out your AARs