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Some questions about Artillery rules


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#1 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:17 PM

As my gaming group is still learning how to play MP ;) we'll appreciate if you can help us with the following questions (and maybe consider them for the rules update):1) Is there any limitation on the number of FO's that a battery may have?(in one of the recent battles I've encountered a battery of Long Tom's with no less than SEVEN FO's. Needless to say the battle rapidly turned from the "clash of armour" to a chessmate match of "where-the-FO-can't-see-my-tanks"...)2) How is the FO treated in regard of Morale checks? I mean does the loss of FO affect the morale of the parent battery?Our group deciced that the FO shares the "activation slot" with its battery but checks Morale separately (usually the battery only has a radio contact with the FO so they shouldn't care much if the communication simply stops :whistle:) 3) When exactly are the mortars allowed to fire "independently" (i.e. with separate scatter for each round)? The rules state that they can use this method when "supporting infantry" - does that mean that the mortars need to be included in the respective TO&E of the infantry unit or is it allowed to declare that "this battery is supporting this unit". Can the mortar battery's FO call "independent" shots instead of salvo?I'm asking this because we found that independently firing mortars are real "tank killers". A battery of 6 tubes with ROF2 means 12 shots and that means almost granted 2 direct hits on a target with possibly more in its surroudings. And even a "suppress" result is enough to spell doom for the tank. A salvo will usually scatter somewhere and need to be corrected by the FO so it is much easier to avoid. The "independent" shots are deadly especially with the mortar's high ROF.And I really don't like my battles turning into "hunt the FO first" game :S .4) Counterbattery fire - when exactly does it happen? After the enemy artillery fires (sort of Artillery overwatch) or during own activation (you declare "I'm trying to find where they're firing from").Does the "artillery spotting" check need to be rolled again each turn or the first success is enough and you may repeat salvos (with scatter of course) from now on? And what if the enemy didn't fire a shot before? (not likely but can happen).And one more thing - the counterbattery salvo is treated as a blind salvo. However what happens when it scatters within LOS of the counterbattery unit? Can it be adjusted???5) "battery spotting for itself"- Most of the artillery unit's TO&Es include things like command stands. Even if the guns themselves are usually hidden safely from enemy's wiev is it quite possible that the e.g. command stand may be placed so that it has a wiev to the battlefield. So when such a stand has a LOS to an enemy does that count as "battery spotting for itself"?Marcin.

#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:23 AM

Hey Marcin,I am going to attempt to tackle your questions. I hope that Jon can check out my answers and ensure I get the answers correct. I normally use the online MP Core Rule Book to help answer questions (while I am at work since it is very convientent) and provide rule references. However, this isn't available to me at the moment so I am handling these questions off the cuff. :huh:Okay...

1) Is there any limitation on the number of FO's that a battery may have?

The game rules don't have any limitions on the numbers of FOs per battery that I am aware of. These limits are placed on the Game Master and/or the TO&E. Personally I would limit the number of FOs per battery to one.

2) How is the FO treated in regard of Morale checks? I mean does the loss of FO affect the morale of the parent battery?

I would say that the FO's morale doesn't affect the battery he is attached to. The FO is out alone picking up targets and is totally away from his parent battery. If the FO is attached to an infantry unit in the field then the infantry unit he is attached to would be affected.

3) When exactly are the mortars allowed to fire "independently" (i.e. with separate scatter for each round)? The rules state that they can use this method when "supporting infantry" - does that mean that the mortars need to be included in the respective TO&E of the infantry unit or is it allowed to declare that "this battery is supporting this unit".

There is no rule to my recollection that would define when mortars can fire "independently". I would say that they can fire "independently" at any time they desire. If a mortar battery is on the board then it is there to support the units in the game. This, however, can be limited by the Game Master and/or Scenario being played.

3a) Can the mortar battery's FO call "independent" shots instead of salvo?

Sure can.-------------------------------------------------------------For Question 4, 4a, 4b and 4c, I will have to answer later as I have never used the counter battery rules before and will have to research them to get you your answer. Unless of course Jon can fill in here for me. :whistle:

4) Counterbattery fire - when exactly does it happen? After the enemy artillery fires (sort of Artillery overwatch) or during own activation (you declare "I'm trying to find where they're firing from").

4a) Does the "artillery spotting" check need to be rolled again each turn or the first success is enough and you may repeat salvos (with scatter of course) from now on?

4b) And what if the enemy didn't fire a shot before? (not likely but can happen).

4c) And one more thing - the counterbattery salvo is treated as a blind salvo. However what happens when it scatters within LOS of the counterbattery unit? Can it be adjusted???

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5) "battery spotting for itself"- Most of the artillery unit's TO&Es include things like command stands. Even if the guns themselves are usually hidden safely from enemy's view is it quite possible that the e.g. command stand may be placed so that it has a wiev to the battlefield. So when such a stand has a LOS to an enemy does that count as "battery spotting for itself"?

If the battery has its own command stand and this stand is spotting for the artillery then the battery is spotting for itself.

#3 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:50 PM

Yea Bob ... not too bad for not looking at the rules. That's why I haven't re-posted the files yet ... challenging you!Here my additional comments (and one correction).1) "Historically" the number of FOs varied from country to country, and even from TO&E to TO&E within the same country. Some had one per battery (the lucky ones) while others had one or two per battalion.The rules does not force a number upon you, so 7 is "legal" although I would also say "cheesy". Bob's 1 per battery is a good rule of thumb, but it isn't mandated by the rules.2) Morale would be independent.3) Ok, this I need to clean up in the next revision. Tyically a mortar in support of infantry would be advancing with the infantry. And it usually involved the smaller 50/60mm mortars. The British are a good example as there is a single mortar with each company. Your larger mortars were typically formed into a battery.While the rules don't specify this, they will in the future ... you can't switch between modes during the game. When supporting infantry, you wouldn't have an FO (usually). Instead, the platoon commander would usually call for help.To answer your question, you can start the game in either mode you wish. A battery usually has a minimum of 3 guns though. And no, the FO can not call independent shots. 4) Counterbattery is taken as part of your own activation, although the idea of a Counterbattery Overwatch option is interesting. Will have to give that some thought for adding to the rules.4A) If you continue to lay your counterbattery barrage in the same location (target point) then you do not need to check again. If you want to move your target point, then you check again.4B) Not sure I understand this one. Do you mean can you counterbattery fire upon enemy artillery that hasn't fired yet? Then no, the enemy battery must have fired at least one. Of course, if have an FO that can SEE the enemy artillery, then you can fire normally.4C) If your barrage scatters to within LOS of your FO or the firing battery, you can adjust per the usual adjustment rules.5) Bob is correct, the command stand can spot for his own artillery.

#4 gregoryk

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:13 PM

jcoulter wrote:

Yea Bob ... not too bad for not looking at the rules. That's why I haven't re-posted the files yet ... challenging you!Here my additional comments (and one correction).1) "Historically" the number of FOs varied from country to country, and even from TO&E to TO&E within the same country. Some had one per battery (the lucky ones) while others had one or two per battalion.The rules does not force a number upon you, so 7 is "legal" although I would also say "cheesy". Bob's 1 per battery is a good rule of thumb, but it isn't mandated by the rules.

It probably should be mandated, at least by TO&E. Even the Americans did not have seven (!?!) FO's per battery, and they had more radios than any army in the war. One per battery should be max for US, Brits/Commonwealth, and Germans, while one per battery up to battalion is correct for Soviets and Japanese. Note that in the Advanced rules, CO's can call for fire in certain armies, albeit at reduced chances. This reflects their decreased skill, access to the wire or radio net, etc.Further, there is only one call for fire per turn per battery; it either arrives or it doesn't.Gregory

#5 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:05 PM

jcoulter wrote:

The rules does not force a number upon you, so 7 is "legal" although I would also say "cheesy".

Yep, we stomped our "inventor" a bit an finally persuaded him that the volume of radio traffic generated by so may FO's will prevent the battery form firing at all... :evil:

3) Ok, this I need to clean up in the next revision. Tyically a mortar in support of infantry would be advancing with the infantry. And it usually involved the smaller 50/60mm mortars. The British are a good example as there is a single mortar with each company. Your larger mortars were typically formed into a battery.While the rules don't specify this, they will in the future ... you can't switch between modes during the game. When supporting infantry, you wouldn't have an FO (usually). Instead, the platoon commander would usually call for help.

So maybe there should be a rule that the mortars assigned to support infantry should share the same "activation slot"? So e.g. Germans could take a Grenadier platoon and a Support platoon and then assign the mortars from the latter to support the Grenadiers so during the battle they activate together???

4B) Not sure I understand this one. Do you mean can you counterbattery fire upon enemy artillery that hasn't fired yet? Then no, the enemy battery must have fired at least one. Of course, if have an FO that can SEE the enemy artillery, then you can fire normally.

Sorry, this was only kind of "rules lawyers protection" question ;)

5) Bob is correct, the command stand can spot for his own artillery.;) ;) :)

So here're two more questions- first one, about something I've encountered yesterday. A group of Panthers made it to the opponent's rear lines and started chasing gun batteries. One battery had a clear wiev to them and declared a salvo. So a question appeared: in such situation does one of the gun teams need to be declared a spotter and so lose it's Standard Action (i.e. not fire)?- Artillery Beaten Zone - each stand trying to move within beaten zone may suffer a partial hit. However, where do the hits come from i.e. which side armor should be taken into account?? (so far our group ruled that we measure from the point where the barrage marker is). Thank you for all your answers :)Marcin

Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/10/18 20:21

#6 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:49 PM

Mortars in support of infantry may or may not be part of the same activation slot. Some countries have "Support Platoons" which would be in support of infantry, but not part of the same activation slot.I would assume all guns, including the spotting gun, to fire. However, in the situation you mentioned, there might be the chance the enemy tanks would be too close to fire a barrage at. I think the minimum indirect artillery range (unless specified in the Notes column of the ET) is 12". You can also direct fire artillery ... but that isn't very accurate. Might be your only choice though.As for the beaten zone ... good question and I will cover this in the next set of revisions. Partial hits are upon the side/rear/front but in this case that isn't clear. Your solution is a good one.

#7 Joel Tompkins

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:27 AM

Minimum indirect fire range of 12-inches ... is that printed somewhere? I was looking for that just the other day. At a nominal distance of 600 yards that seems well within mortar range?

#8 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:56 AM

Yes, Page 10.4, under "Range Limits". Bottom of Center Column and top of third column.Basically ... if there is a MAXIMUM range listed, then the minimum range is MAX divided by 10. If there is no maximum listed, then the minimum range is 12".Some weapons in the new ETs have a minimum range listed and this will be covered in the next set of revisions.

#9 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 02:07 AM

jcoulter wrote:

Yes, Page 10.4, under "Range Limits". Bottom of Center Column and top of third column.Basically ... if there is a MAXIMUM range listed, then the minimum range is MAX divided by 10. If there is no maximum listed, then the minimum range is 12".Some weapons in the new ETs have a minimum range listed and this will be covered in the next set of revisions.

Speaking about the range limits IIRC the rules do not cover situation when the barrage marker scatters over or below gun's range (especially important in case of usually short-ranged mortars). Another case is when the barrage falls just below the max range but some of the squares on the barrage template are beyond.Marcin

#10 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:18 AM

I will make a note to address that. The Maximum and/or Minimum range is where you can place your barrage marker. If it scatters outside that range, or if a shell lands outside that range, that is legal.Also, if your barrage marker scatters outside that range, you can continue to lay artillery at that spot, but can only adjust it if (ie move it 2") if that adjustment moves it back to within the guns min/max range.

#11 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

jcoulter wrote:

I will make a note to address that. The Maximum and/or Minimum range is where you can place your barrage marker. If it scatters outside that range, or if a shell lands outside that range, that is legal.

So it is quite possible that a mortar firing at a very close range could, with an unlucky scatter, lob shells behind or even worse - right ON itself??? (british Mk1 3" mortar has a min. range of 3,2"). I find it hard to believe that such thing may happen in relity. I'd rather suggest that in case of a barrage marker scattering behind allowed range you slide it back, along the scatter arrow until it reaches the min/max distance. BTW - what happens when a vehicle fires a HE/smoke round at a point 1" before it, misses and gets any of the 1-2"short results? My friend's Shermans are notorious in doing this while firing smoke on the move... Marcin

#12 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 08:55 PM

Very simple solution ... when a situation presents itself where a round scatters back toward the firing stand it will never be any closer than 1", regardless of the deviation result.

#13 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:54 PM

jcoulter wrote:

Very simple solution ... when a situation presents itself where a round scatters back toward the firing stand it will never be any closer than 1", regardless of the deviation result.

OK, sounds good to me. So here're two more questions (and I hope the last ones. I don't want you to get bored with me ;))1] Shouldn't mortars be allowed to fire "direct mode"? I know they aren't very accurate and lob their shells at a high trajectory however when you have a LOS to the target you can set direction almost just by looking along the tube and the only problem is to set the correct distance. And that can be applied in game terms by appropriate OM values.Light infantry mortars (e.g. british 2" or german 5cm) were mostly used to provide close range support or smoke cover - more like grenade launcher. They are usually dispersed among infantry platoons so will never fire as battery and with current rules you may try to use HE (with a fair chance to hit your own troops) but smoke rounds are pretty useless (two shots per round, with a scatter = "smoke annoyance" rather than smoke cover :) )2] Barrage template - Will it be possible to change the squares into hexes? The squares somehow don't have "the right feel" ;) when it comes to resolve artillery hits. Hexes are more "round", so may be more appropriate but won't change current template pattern (that works quite good IMO).Marcin

#14 Sean King

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 04:00 PM

Personaly I think it can happen that is the hazard of firing so close to yourself. There can be some very strong winds aloft. (Once during flying I was working on keepng the stall horn on but not actually stalling and the plane was moving backwards at a pretty good pace in relation to the ground. That means the wind up where I was {3000 to 4000 feet} was about 70mph.) So yes it can come back on ya if you fire that close to yourself. :unsure: Of course I do like J Coulters easy fix to for ease of play.:cheer: Sean

#15 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:30 PM

thenorthman wrote:

Personaly I think it can happen that is the hazard of firing so close to yourself. There can be some very strong winds aloft. (Once during flying I was working on keepng the stall horn on but not actually stalling and the plane was moving backwards at a pretty good pace in relation to the ground. That means the wind up where I was {3000 to 4000 feet} was about 70mph.) So yes it can come back on ya if you fire that close to yourself. :unsure: Of course I do like J Coulters easy fix to for ease of play.:cheer: Sean

After yesterday's battle I have a feeling that it may still need a bit more precise approach.Here's what happened: - a t one point of the game I had a chance to fire my puny BR 2" Mortar at a german Panzer IV. The firing distance was some 3.5". Obviously both shots missed and both scattered 5" - one landing somewhere behind the firnig stand but over 3" from it so the "no closer than 1" fix" didn't apply. (BTW that Pz IV was a moment later shred to pieces by a Bren fire but the "LMG vs.Tanks" story is another issue). The wind during the game was 1" strong.Don't you think that was a bit strange? :unsure: I suppose that something like: "the scatter may not exceed 1/2 of the distance to the target" may solve this.Marcin

Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/10/23 21:31

#16 Jonathan Coulter

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 08:53 AM

Much of this is currently under discussion in the playtester forum. Various ideas have been tossed out and once we get closer to a viable solution, I'll post it here for everyone to give a try.




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