Some questions about Artillery rules
#1
Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:17 PM
#2
Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:23 AM
The game rules don't have any limitions on the numbers of FOs per battery that I am aware of. These limits are placed on the Game Master and/or the TO&E. Personally I would limit the number of FOs per battery to one.1) Is there any limitation on the number of FO's that a battery may have?
I would say that the FO's morale doesn't affect the battery he is attached to. The FO is out alone picking up targets and is totally away from his parent battery. If the FO is attached to an infantry unit in the field then the infantry unit he is attached to would be affected.2) How is the FO treated in regard of Morale checks? I mean does the loss of FO affect the morale of the parent battery?
There is no rule to my recollection that would define when mortars can fire "independently". I would say that they can fire "independently" at any time they desire. If a mortar battery is on the board then it is there to support the units in the game. This, however, can be limited by the Game Master and/or Scenario being played.3) When exactly are the mortars allowed to fire "independently" (i.e. with separate scatter for each round)? The rules state that they can use this method when "supporting infantry" - does that mean that the mortars need to be included in the respective TO&E of the infantry unit or is it allowed to declare that "this battery is supporting this unit".
Sure can.-------------------------------------------------------------For Question 4, 4a, 4b and 4c, I will have to answer later as I have never used the counter battery rules before and will have to research them to get you your answer. Unless of course Jon can fill in here for me. :whistle:3a) Can the mortar battery's FO call "independent" shots instead of salvo?
4) Counterbattery fire - when exactly does it happen? After the enemy artillery fires (sort of Artillery overwatch) or during own activation (you declare "I'm trying to find where they're firing from").
4a) Does the "artillery spotting" check need to be rolled again each turn or the first success is enough and you may repeat salvos (with scatter of course) from now on?
4b) And what if the enemy didn't fire a shot before? (not likely but can happen).
-------------------------------------------------------------4c) And one more thing - the counterbattery salvo is treated as a blind salvo. However what happens when it scatters within LOS of the counterbattery unit? Can it be adjusted???
If the battery has its own command stand and this stand is spotting for the artillery then the battery is spotting for itself.5) "battery spotting for itself"- Most of the artillery unit's TO&Es include things like command stands. Even if the guns themselves are usually hidden safely from enemy's view is it quite possible that the e.g. command stand may be placed so that it has a wiev to the battlefield. So when such a stand has a LOS to an enemy does that count as "battery spotting for itself"?
#3
Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:50 PM
#4
Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:13 PM
It probably should be mandated, at least by TO&E. Even the Americans did not have seven (!?!) FO's per battery, and they had more radios than any army in the war. One per battery should be max for US, Brits/Commonwealth, and Germans, while one per battery up to battalion is correct for Soviets and Japanese. Note that in the Advanced rules, CO's can call for fire in certain armies, albeit at reduced chances. This reflects their decreased skill, access to the wire or radio net, etc.Further, there is only one call for fire per turn per battery; it either arrives or it doesn't.GregoryYea Bob ... not too bad for not looking at the rules. That's why I haven't re-posted the files yet ... challenging you!Here my additional comments (and one correction).1) "Historically" the number of FOs varied from country to country, and even from TO&E to TO&E within the same country. Some had one per battery (the lucky ones) while others had one or two per battalion.The rules does not force a number upon you, so 7 is "legal" although I would also say "cheesy". Bob's 1 per battery is a good rule of thumb, but it isn't mandated by the rules.
#5
Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:05 PM
Yep, we stomped our "inventor" a bit an finally persuaded him that the volume of radio traffic generated by so may FO's will prevent the battery form firing at all... :evil:The rules does not force a number upon you, so 7 is "legal" although I would also say "cheesy".
So maybe there should be a rule that the mortars assigned to support infantry should share the same "activation slot"? So e.g. Germans could take a Grenadier platoon and a Support platoon and then assign the mortars from the latter to support the Grenadiers so during the battle they activate together???3) Ok, this I need to clean up in the next revision. Tyically a mortar in support of infantry would be advancing with the infantry. And it usually involved the smaller 50/60mm mortars. The British are a good example as there is a single mortar with each company. Your larger mortars were typically formed into a battery.While the rules don't specify this, they will in the future ... you can't switch between modes during the game. When supporting infantry, you wouldn't have an FO (usually). Instead, the platoon commander would usually call for help.
Sorry, this was only kind of "rules lawyers protection" question ;)4B) Not sure I understand this one. Do you mean can you counterbattery fire upon enemy artillery that hasn't fired yet? Then no, the enemy battery must have fired at least one. Of course, if have an FO that can SEE the enemy artillery, then you can fire normally.
So here're two more questions- first one, about something I've encountered yesterday. A group of Panthers made it to the opponent's rear lines and started chasing gun batteries. One battery had a clear wiev to them and declared a salvo. So a question appeared: in such situation does one of the gun teams need to be declared a spotter and so lose it's Standard Action (i.e. not fire)?- Artillery Beaten Zone - each stand trying to move within beaten zone may suffer a partial hit. However, where do the hits come from i.e. which side armor should be taken into account?? (so far our group ruled that we measure from the point where the barrage marker is). Thank you for all your answers :)Marcin5) Bob is correct, the command stand can spot for his own artillery.;) ;) :)
Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/10/18 20:21
#6
Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:49 PM
#7
Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:27 AM
#8
Posted 19 October 2005 - 08:56 AM
#9
Posted 22 October 2005 - 02:07 AM
Speaking about the range limits IIRC the rules do not cover situation when the barrage marker scatters over or below gun's range (especially important in case of usually short-ranged mortars). Another case is when the barrage falls just below the max range but some of the squares on the barrage template are beyond.MarcinYes, Page 10.4, under "Range Limits". Bottom of Center Column and top of third column.Basically ... if there is a MAXIMUM range listed, then the minimum range is MAX divided by 10. If there is no maximum listed, then the minimum range is 12".Some weapons in the new ETs have a minimum range listed and this will be covered in the next set of revisions.
#10
Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:18 AM
#11
Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:58 AM
So it is quite possible that a mortar firing at a very close range could, with an unlucky scatter, lob shells behind or even worse - right ON itself??? (british Mk1 3" mortar has a min. range of 3,2"). I find it hard to believe that such thing may happen in relity. I'd rather suggest that in case of a barrage marker scattering behind allowed range you slide it back, along the scatter arrow until it reaches the min/max distance. BTW - what happens when a vehicle fires a HE/smoke round at a point 1" before it, misses and gets any of the 1-2"short results? My friend's Shermans are notorious in doing this while firing smoke on the move... MarcinI will make a note to address that. The Maximum and/or Minimum range is where you can place your barrage marker. If it scatters outside that range, or if a shell lands outside that range, that is legal.
#12
Posted 22 October 2005 - 08:55 PM
#13
Posted 22 October 2005 - 10:54 PM
OK, sounds good to me. So here're two more questions (and I hope the last ones. I don't want you to get bored with me ;))1] Shouldn't mortars be allowed to fire "direct mode"? I know they aren't very accurate and lob their shells at a high trajectory however when you have a LOS to the target you can set direction almost just by looking along the tube and the only problem is to set the correct distance. And that can be applied in game terms by appropriate OM values.Light infantry mortars (e.g. british 2" or german 5cm) were mostly used to provide close range support or smoke cover - more like grenade launcher. They are usually dispersed among infantry platoons so will never fire as battery and with current rules you may try to use HE (with a fair chance to hit your own troops) but smoke rounds are pretty useless (two shots per round, with a scatter = "smoke annoyance" rather than smoke cover :) )2] Barrage template - Will it be possible to change the squares into hexes? The squares somehow don't have "the right feel" ;) when it comes to resolve artillery hits. Hexes are more "round", so may be more appropriate but won't change current template pattern (that works quite good IMO).MarcinVery simple solution ... when a situation presents itself where a round scatters back toward the firing stand it will never be any closer than 1", regardless of the deviation result.
#14
Posted 23 October 2005 - 04:00 PM
#15
Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:30 PM
After yesterday's battle I have a feeling that it may still need a bit more precise approach.Here's what happened: - a t one point of the game I had a chance to fire my puny BR 2" Mortar at a german Panzer IV. The firing distance was some 3.5". Obviously both shots missed and both scattered 5" - one landing somewhere behind the firnig stand but over 3" from it so the "no closer than 1" fix" didn't apply. (BTW that Pz IV was a moment later shred to pieces by a Bren fire but the "LMG vs.Tanks" story is another issue). The wind during the game was 1" strong.Don't you think that was a bit strange? :unsure: I suppose that something like: "the scatter may not exceed 1/2 of the distance to the target" may solve this.MarcinPersonaly I think it can happen that is the hazard of firing so close to yourself. There can be some very strong winds aloft. (Once during flying I was working on keepng the stall horn on but not actually stalling and the plane was moving backwards at a pretty good pace in relation to the ground. That means the wind up where I was {3000 to 4000 feet} was about 70mph.) So yes it can come back on ya if you fire that close to yourself. :unsure: Of course I do like J Coulters easy fix to for ease of play.:cheer: Sean
Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/10/23 21:31
#16
Posted 24 October 2005 - 08:53 AM
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