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Infantry Firepower Questions


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#21 h3st4by

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:56 PM

We are really new to MP2 so we don't have to much experience with it, but we are testing the rules in the moment.

So we tested also your new prospective tables: we thought that with your new prospectiv tables the damage-output of a single MMG stand and of vehicle MGs against infantry were too low. Mostly we were only able to suppress infantry in the open, to take really hit's and wound them was too difficult and at long range sometimes not possible.

Maybe one should not decrease the FP-rate of a single MG that much.

#22 Bob Benge

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 03:28 AM

We are really new to MP2 so we don't have to much experience with it, but we are testing the rules in the moment.

So we tested also your new prospective tables: we thought that with your new prospectiv tables the damage-output of a single MMG stand and of vehicle MGs against infantry were too low. Mostly we were only able to suppress infantry in the open, to take really hit's and wound them was too difficult and at long range sometimes not possible.

Maybe one should not decrease the FP-rate of a single MG that much.


Well, after much deliberation after my initial changes, I have made changes again. I will try to post an updated sample this coming week when I can get some time. Suffice it to say that the MG values we increased. A couple of other changes will be detailed when the updated samples are released. So stay tuned. If these changes pan out like I think they will then I will have a lot of work ahead of me too. :)
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#23 Bob Benge

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 08:33 PM

Well All,

I am posting the fruit of my labor. I am attaching the German, Russian, Britsh and US WW2 Infnatry stats as I hope to publish them after some feedback from some testing. Please check them out soonest and get back to me here.

Please note the slight changes.

MG stands can range to 48" now. while LMGs attached to squads cannot. Thought process behind this is that the LMG is supporting the squad and will not be used in long range fire fight since ammo is limited.
Squad stands with attached MGs willl have an * next to the ROF. This denotes that the 2nd shot is at the reduced FP value of the squad. So if a Squad stand with LMG has a 8/5 FP while firing at a target 24" away, then the 1st shot will be at 8 FP and the 2nd shot will be at 5.

Any other questions regarding the numbers drop them here! :)

Enjoy!

Hey Mark1! Hope you see check out the files!

Files removed for updated files in later post.
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#24 gregoryk

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:45 PM

Well All,

I am posting the fruit of my labor. I am attaching the German, Russian, Britsh and US WW2 Infnatry stats as I hope to publish them after some feedback from some testing. Please check them out soonest and get back to me here.

Please note the slight changes.

MG stands can range to 48" now. while LMGs attached to squads cannot. Thought process behind this is that the LMG is supporting the squad and will not be used in long range fire fight since ammo is limited.
Squad stands with attached MGs willl have an * next to the ROF. This denotes that the 2nd shot is at the reduced FP value of the squad. So if a Squad stand with LMG has a 8/5 FP while firing at a target 24" away, then the 1st shot will be at 8 FP and the 2nd shot will be at 5.

Any other questions regarding the numbers drop them here! :)

Enjoy!

Hey Mark1! Hope you see check out the files!

What are the starting TQ for each of the country files?

Cheers,
Gregory

#25 Mark 1

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 01:24 PM

I am attaching the German, Russian, Britsh and US WW2 Infnatry stats as I hope to publish them after some feedback from some testing. Please check them out soonest and get back to me here.

...

Hey Mark1! Hope you see check out the files!

Thanks Bob!

I got 'em. Pulled 'em all, read 'em over. They look pretty reasonable to me.

Please note the slight changes.

MG stands can range to 48" now. while LMGs attached to squads cannot. Thought process behind this is that the LMG is supporting the squad and will not be used in long range fire fight since ammo is limited.

Well, not quite.

Tripod-mounted rifle-caliber HMGs, like the US M1917 and the Soviet Tula M1910 (Maxim) get a range of 48". Among the LMGs you gave only the German MG34 and 42 a range of 48" when it is on it's own. The Soviet DP28 and the British Bren only get 36", and the lowly US BAR only gets 24".

Which, if I interpret it correctly, says that among LMGs the MG34/42 was most capable of putting effective firepower down at longer ranges, and the BAR was least. ALL of which correlates well to my readings of the history of those weapons. The MG34 and 42 were belt-fed, had very high rates of fire, and had quick-change barrels. The BAR had a magazine which was smaller than either DP28 or Bren, was more awkward to reload from a fire-support position (due to the mag being below vs. above), and didn't have a quick-change (or any change) barrel. All together a less capable weapon in the support role.

Squad stands with attached MGs willl have an * next to the ROF. This denotes that the 2nd shot is at the reduced FP value of the squad. So if a Squad stand with LMG has a 8/5 FP while firing at a target 24" away, then the 1st shot will be at 8 FP and the 2nd shot will be at 5.

All except the US stands with Garands (or carbines) and BARs. They get an ROF of regular old 1.

I could interpret that as suggesting that the BAR had notably less automatic firepower than other LMGs. I think that is a reasonable interpretation. But I expect it is going to be a pretty hard nut to swallow for gamers going into action with US infantry, who are equipped with the best self-loading rifle of the war, and yet have only a fraction of the firepower of bolt-action equipped Germans, Brits or Soviets.

I'm thinking that the BAR's impact on the US infantry is about right, but maybe the rifle-only stand equipped with Garands should be rated a bit higher as a starting point.

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#26 Bob Benge

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 05:21 PM

What are the starting TQ for each of the country files?

Cheers,
Gregory



Gregory,

These are the prospective replacement tables so the TQ ratings are the same.
Soviet Union 10
UK and US 11
German 12
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#27 Bob Benge

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 05:43 PM

Thanks Bob!

I got 'em. Pulled 'em all, read 'em over. They look pretty reasonable to me.


Well, not quite.

Tripod-mounted rifle-caliber HMGs, like the US M1917 and the Soviet Tula M1910 (Maxim) get a range of 48". Among the LMGs you gave only the German MG34 and 42 a range of 48" when it is on it's own. The Soviet DP28 and the British Bren only get 36", and the lowly US BAR only gets 24".

Which, if I interpret it correctly, says that among LMGs the MG34/42 was most capable of putting effective firepower down at longer ranges, and the BAR was least. ALL of which correlates well to my readings of the history of those weapons. The MG34 and 42 were belt-fed, had very high rates of fire, and had quick-change barrels. The BAR had a magazine which was smaller than either DP28 or Bren, was more awkward to reload from a fire-support position (due to the mag being below vs. above), and didn't have a quick-change (or any change) barrel. All together a less capable weapon in the support role.


All except the US stands with Garands (or carbines) and BARs. They get an ROF of regular old 1.

I could interpret that as suggesting that the BAR had notably less automatic firepower than other LMGs. I think that is a reasonable interpretation. But I expect it is going to be a pretty hard nut to swallow for gamers going into action with US infantry, who are equipped with the best self-loading rifle of the war, and yet have only a fraction of the firepower of bolt-action equipped Germans, Brits or Soviets.

I'm thinking that the BAR's impact on the US infantry is about right, but maybe the rifle-only stand equipped with Garands should be rated a bit higher as a starting point.

-Mark 1


Remember that the German TQ Rating is built into the numbers which would skew their firepower higher. I went back and found that I had an error in a lookup that caused a little skew which I need to rectify. This should skew the rifles more to what you are looking for. I'll redo the numbers and repost.

The BAR, IMHO, does not generate the firepower to earn a ROF increase. It gets additional FP value to the stand though, basically an SAR plus.
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#28 Bob Benge

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 07:12 PM

OK, as Mark had pointed out my minor math glitch, I am reposting the files with the rifle corrections.

Please give these a look.

Files deleted for updated files in a later post.
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#29 gregoryk

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 01:37 AM

Remember that the German TQ Rating is built into the numbers which would skew their firepower higher. I went back and found that I had an error in a lookup that caused a little skew which I need to rectify. This should skew the rifles more to what you are looking for. I'll redo the numbers and repost.

The BAR, IMHO, does not generate the firepower to earn a ROF increase. It gets additional FP value to the stand though, basically an SAR plus.

I like the range increase for the MG34, this is something we worked into the MMG stats for the weapon. Although we have a completely different range model based on Meine Truppen.

#30 Mark 1

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 07:41 PM

I am reposting the files with the rifle corrections.

Please give these a look.

So as I see it now, the rifle groups + LMG really do have max range of 24", while the LMGs in support have ranges of 24" (BAR), 36" (Bren and DP28) or 48" (MG34/42). Looks about right.

And the US Garand rifles-only squad has higher fire power than the bolt-action rifles of the Brits or Soviets, but the BAR adds less to the squad than the Bren or DP28. Looks about right.

And the LMGs in support have firepower that is less than the Rifles + LMG squads. Which is what got me into this conversation to start with.

So it all looks about right to me. Be interested to hear from others how they see it, and how it plays.

Score me as a camper, happy, Mk1. ;)

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#31 Bob Benge

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:06 AM

So as I see it now, the rifle groups + LMG really do have max range of 24", while the LMGs in support have ranges of 24" (BAR), 36" (Bren and DP28) or 48" (MG34/42). Looks about right.

And the US Garand rifles-only squad has higher fire power than the bolt-action rifles of the Brits or Soviets, but the BAR adds less to the squad than the Bren or DP28. Looks about right.

And the LMGs in support have firepower that is less than the Rifles + LMG squads. Which is what got me into this conversation to start with.

So it all looks about right to me. Be interested to hear from others how they see it, and how it plays.

Score me as a camper, happy, Mk1. ;)

-Mark 1


Ran a playtest with Don and Kenny yesterday and for the most part I was happy with the numbers. I had found a glitch in the numbers in respect to the OM1/2/3 values. So I am reworking them a little. I also found a minor glitch with the FP numbers. It most likely won't affect the numbers much, if at all, but I am going to republish the numbers for review. Overall, I was pleased with how the numbers played, though Kenny and I were not pleased with Don's die rolling. Don was murder rolling 80% of his dice with numbers at or below 11. OUCH!

I'll be posting the updated numbers hopefully sometime today.
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#32 h3st4by

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 12:08 PM

Hi,

i tried them too :D .

I think they are better than the last, but some values maybe need a little bit correction:

- the DM of 1.0 stands is -2, i think it should be -4
- the DM of 0.5 stands is -2, i think it should be -6
- a size 2.0 stand that has a casulty has a HtH value 5 to 3 (without casulty it has 7 to 8), but a single size 1.0 stand has HtH 8 ? Maybe the 1.0 and 0.5 sized stands should also have a HtH 4 to be not that much better than stand of the double size with some casulties and not to be as good as a squad of a full strengh double-sized squad.
- SMG stands (UssR) have questionabel OM-values of OM1 -3, OM2 -5 and OM3 -11. An ordinary Rifle stand has better values firing while moving, that feels wrong
- by SMG stands the FP-values of 4/2 (up to 2") and 1/0 (up to 6") seems questionabel also, because in all this values a SMG stand is also worser than a ordinary Rifle stand at close range fire (?)

#33 Bob Benge

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:40 PM

Hi,

i tried them too :D .

I think they are better than the last, but some values maybe need a little bit correction:

- the DM of 1.0 stands is -2, i think it should be -4
- the DM of 0.5 stands is -2, i think it should be -6
- a size 2.0 stand that has a casulty has a HtH value 5 to 3 (without casulty it has 7 to 8), but a single size 1.0 stand has HtH 8 ? Maybe the 1.0 and 0.5 sized stands should also have a HtH 4 to be not that much better than stand of the double size with some casulties and not to be as good as a squad of a full strengh double-sized squad.
- SMG stands (UssR) have questionabel OM-values of OM1 -3, OM2 -5 and OM3 -11. An ordinary Rifle stand has better values firing while moving, that feels wrong
- by SMG stands the FP-values of 4/2 (up to 2") and 1/0 (up to 6") seems questionabel also, because in all this values a SMG stand is also worser than a ordinary Rifle stand at close range fire (?)


Thanks for the info.

- The DMs are incorrect. and will be changed.
- I am also reworking how the HtH values are derived and they should more accurately reflect the number of men in the unit.
- SMG OM values will be slightly lower than rifles and SMGs are not aimed. They rely solely on volume of fire vice riflemen actually aiming at their target. We have always uphelp this theory and will be sticking to it. However,the OM values I used are a little high and I will reduce them slightly.
- The reason that the FP numbers are lower for the SMG is that the ROF is 2. So you have 2 shots at that number which actually gives you better odds of getting results than one shot at a slightly higher number. Also, the SMG you reference is Russian which has a TQ of 10 which reduces the the numbers slightly also. All of the numbers have the regular TQ built into them so this will deviate the numbers slightly. This will not change.I am readjusting the 6" range numbers though as they seem slightly low.

Ok, I am going back to making the fixes. More to come...
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#34 Kenny Noe

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:26 AM

Bob, you have done an amazing amount of work. I would like to thank you for this. I really enjoyed the Inf mini-game we did,so much so that I am leaning toward an inf game for next year convention schedule. <HA!>

Good job!

#35 Bob Benge

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:02 PM

Bob, you have done an amazing amount of work. I would like to thank you for this. I really enjoyed the Inf mini-game we did,so much so that I am leaning toward an inf game for next year convention schedule. <HA!>

Good job!



Thank you Kenny. I am glad you enjoyed the little playtest we ran. :0
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#36 Bob Benge

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 05:19 PM

Okay Everyone, I have made some more fixes and changes. I have fixed the DM modifiers and the HtH values are derived from the weapon types. The SMG numbers have been reworked just a little. Again, the only country that has SMG squads are the Soviets and they have a TQ 10 which devite the numbers a bit lower than normal. Also remember that the SMG has a ROF of 2 so it gets two rolls instead of one. The biggest change has been the OM1-2-3 values. I thought they were just a bit high and I have reduced and standardized them a bit. When looking at the Germans they seemed, at first, a little high after the update, but then I realized that with the TQ of 12 and the addition of the MG34/42 which also has an addition that the nubmer were understandable.

Please give these a look over and test and let me know what you think.

Thank you all! :)
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#37 h3st4by

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 02:39 PM

Hi Bob :) ,

I played a small rus-ger solo-infantry-game with the new tables and in my opinion they felt very well :D !

I found only minor points that could maybe changed:

-The FO stand has always a DM of -4 but the Flamethrowe/Demo stand has a DM of -5; i think maybe the FO should also has a DM of -5 or maybe -6.

-Maybe one could add a additional -1 DM-Modifier for the Recon-Upgrade because these soldiers should know how to hide ;).

-I think in russian chart the FP-values for the heavy weapon stands show a layout-error, the FP-values aren't shown correct.

Thank you very much for this amazing amount of work :) !

#38 Bob Benge

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 05:40 PM

Hi Bob :) ,

I played a small rus-ger solo-infantry-game with the new tables and in my opinion they felt very well :D !

I found only minor points that could maybe changed:

-The FO stand has always a DM of -4 but the Flamethrowe/Demo stand has a DM of -5; i think maybe the FO should also has a DM of -5 or maybe -6.

-Maybe one could add a additional -1 DM-Modifier for the Recon-Upgrade because these soldiers should know how to hide ;).

-I think in russian chart the FP-values for the heavy weapon stands show a layout-error, the FP-values aren't shown correct.

Thank you very much for this amazing amount of work :) !


Glad the numbers seemed to work.

As to the nits you found...

FO Stands should have been a DM -5. My goof there. I have fixed that.
The Russian Heavy weapons lines were messed up. Fixed that too.
The Recon stand - to DM is a no go. While I understand what you are saying, The DMs are based on size. With the other benefits for Recon stands I don't think that the - to DM size would be inline. This isn't to say you can't do it for your games though. :)

I'll get the final fixes up to the forum here soon.

Thanks for your effort! I greatly appreciate it! :)
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#39 Bob Benge

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:13 PM

Okay, here, hopefully is the final? rendition of the playtest Infantry stats. Give them a look/play and let me know if I missed anything else. :)

Thanks for your support. :)

Attached Files


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#40 Kenny Noe

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:42 AM

Okay, here, hopefully is the final? rendition of the playtest Infantry stats. Give them a look/play and let me know if I missed anything else. :)

Thanks for your support. :)


You missed something!!! (exactly what I don't know!) bwahahahahaha




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