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Direct Fire Modifiers


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#1 Doug Pappert

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 09:11 PM

The other night I introduced some of my old friends to Mein Panzer.  They loved it.  A couple of questions came up about the direct fire modifiers.  Let me state that these are men who have real world experience with tanks.  The discussions revolved around the fine print on the advanced reference card under direct fire that state that cover, elevation and hull down are not cumulative.  Most of them seem to think that they should.  After listening to them discuss this, I am inclined to agree with them.  Was there some game design reason that this is the case?  The main argument was about vehicles in hull down at higher elevations.  There was also one example in the game of a vehicle in soft cover, on a hill, in hull down being fired at from a vehicle at a lower elevation.  We actually played the game out by allowing the modifiers to stack.  We felt that it played fine.  Sure, these vehicles were hard to hit, but not impossible.  We were just interested to know what other players and designers felt about this.

Thanks for your time.

Doug



#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 04:14 PM

Hi Doug,

 

I think that there may be a bit of a misunderstanding, at least to some degree. Looking at the modifiers in question, which are the Condition of the Target Stand, you'll notice that Hard Cover, Linear Cover, Higher Elevation and Soft Cover are all in a white box. Those modifiers are not cumulative. with each other. Now notice that the Hull down modifiers are in a gray. The hull down modifier must be chosen from one of the 3 possibilities and are not cumulative with each other. the Hull down modifier is cumulative with the best modifier from the white box. Thus you could have hull down prepared with soft cover  or Hull down on Hill with linear cover. This was a game design choice by the author. 

 

I can see where the higher elevation could have a possibility of stacking with other modifiers in the group. I would recommend that you play as you have been since it plays well for you and we will go back and talk about this further and make a determination if a change needs to be made.

 

Thanks Doug for the post! :)


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#3 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:23 PM

Hi Bob

 

Does your hull down interpretation mean that a tank on a hill that is hull down would get a +4 modifier for hull down (not prepared) in addition to +3 if it is at a higher elevation than the unit firing at it?  So if a tank was firing at another tank on a hill that was also hull down from a lower elevation then the modifier would actually be +7.  Is this correct?  This actually makes good sense to me. 

I admit that I had read the rules as a single modifier in all cases but this seems better and makes units on hills harder to destroy.

 

I look forward to seeing you and your friends on August 1st.

 

Pete Skaar



#4 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 12:00 PM

I looked at the defensive modifiers again over the weekend.  I checked the rules and the charts.  My rules and charts are dated 2006.

 

In the rules it states that hull down, elevation, and cover modifiers are not cumulative.  I do believe that elevation and hull down should be cumulative, however, but that is not how the rules are written.

 

In my example from my previous post, +7 should actually be a -7 and any other + numbers used should be - numbers instead.  I wanted to clarify that to avoid confusion.

 

Pete



#5 Bob Benge

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 05:34 PM

Pete,

 

1st - Yes, a tank on a hill would get the +4 modifier as it is deriving its hull down from being on the hill, not from an improved position such as a tank dugout.

2nd - Yes, the rules state that hull down, elevation, and cover modifiers are not cumulative, though I admit that this may need to change a bit. I think elevation should be separate and cumulative to other modifiers. So your example would be correct. I will have to take this issue up with the guys and see if an agreement is made. I am also not sure of the impact to the game as far as the weight of the modifiers so if a change is made it may impact the elevation modifier (maybe lowering it to -2) a little. Have to take all of the impacts into consideration.


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#6 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 06:06 PM

Hi Bob

 

Thanks for the input.  I think that for our game on Saturday, I will use the combined modifier of elevation and hull down in the instances where it occurs.  Truthfully it seems to make more sense to me.  After the game we can discuss how this may impact the game.

 

Pete






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