SP mortars and howitzers
#1
Posted 13 December 2005 - 10:52 AM
#2
Posted 13 December 2005 - 12:50 PM
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/13 10:52
#3
Posted 13 December 2005 - 01:11 PM
#4
Posted 13 December 2005 - 02:02 PM
#5
Posted 13 December 2005 - 05:44 PM
#6
Posted 13 December 2005 - 07:05 PM
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/13 17:09
#7
Posted 13 December 2005 - 08:14 PM
#8
Posted 14 December 2005 - 06:40 AM
#9
Posted 14 December 2005 - 02:26 PM
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/14 12:29
#10
Posted 14 December 2005 - 02:30 PM
I think folks are getting confused with the term Direct Laying, which refers to a unit self-observing for their own indirect fire. It does not mean flat trajectory direct fire; it just means they are observing for themselves as they fire their guns. Mortars in LOS of their targets Direct Lay their fire.The problem with the RAW mortar fire rules is the incredible inaccuracy, especially for units with LOS. In fact, it is less accurate than offboard fire. Here's why:[ul]Since Mortars and Mortar Carriers do not have an OM1/2 Value at all then they are always considered indirect fired. The reason for this is simple, you can't point a mortar tube directly at a target and fire it. That is not its intended purpose. The mortar is a top down attack weapon meant to get into trenches, improved positions, foxholes, etc. to root out those pesky dug-in enemy and attack their weakest point. So they lobbed in the rounds. Lobbing rounds is, for the most part, inaccurate at best. So I actually like and agree with how mortars are handled in MP, since IMHO that is how they actually acted in combat.
[/ul]Each ROF for a mortar (typically ROF=2 for these weapons) is deviated by the deviation die. Then the mortar circular template is placed. It is possible for shots from a mortar in direct line-of-sight to land rounds in a circle 10" in diameter, and during the same activation! The chance of putting a round directly on target is 16.7% (a '6' on the deviation die) and the chance of a partial hit, or maybe a lucky direct hit, is 16.7% (a '1' on the deviation die). There is no accounting for Troop Quality, adjusting, or anything. Mortars were simply not that inaccurate. The shooters could range those weapons in pretty well within the time frame of an MP turn.from core rules:FIRING MORTARSWhen firing a mortar, place the BARRAGE marker at the target location as normal but do not deviate it. Instead, roll one deviation for each rate of fire of the mortar. The die will show an arrow and a number. Place a Mortar template a number of inches away from the BARRAGE marker as indicated by the direction and number of the result rolled. If the die result was an “X”, the mortar lands directly on top of the BARRAGE marker.
The situation arose when a unit of M7 Priests arrived onboard in LOS of an AT gun raising havoc with some M4's. Their 105mm's were just the thing to demolish the AT gun before it caused further damage. The M7's had moved and then wanted to lob in some rounds.GregoryPost edited by: gregoryk, at: 2005/12/14 12:32I would like to know why would SP guns direct fire a barrage at a target when they have actual targets to shoot at. If they were trying to kill the targets I would direct fire at individual targets, not try to kill them on a barrage. Anyway, I would say that if you are trying to lay a barrage on a target that the battery can actually see then you would use indirect fire only, but since the battery can see the target they can spot for themselves instead of relying on an FO.
Post edited by: gregoryk, at: 2005/12/14 12:41
#11
Posted 14 December 2005 - 02:57 PM
Gergory, with respect you started the confusion by using the "OM2" reference... :P (Happens to me all the time....) However I think you have clarified that in a previous posting. Yes we're discussing Direct LOS for mortar firing.I think folks are getting confused with the term Direct Laying, which refers to a unit self-observing for their own indirect fire. It does not mean flat trajectory direct fire; it just means they are observing for themselves as they fire their guns. Mortars in LOS of their targets Direct Lay their fire.
You're gonna have to argue this with Jon!! (good luck!) <grin>The problem with the RAW mortar fire rules is the incredible inaccuracy, especially for units with LOS. In fact, it is less accurate than offboard fire.
What is this "Mortar Circular template"?? The Mortar template provided with the RAW is 1 inch circle (6mm scale). Mortars are resolved individually thus the use of the Deviation dice with each round.However if you group your mortars in a battery they cease to be an infantry support only asset and then become a larger asset for all units on the board. You would resolve a battery of mortars the same as a regular battery...Each ROF for a mortar (typically ROF=2 for these weapons) is deviated by the deviation die. Then the mortar circular template is placed. It is possible for shots from a mortar in direct line-of-sight to land rounds in a circle 10" in diameter, and during the same activation! The chance of putting a round directly on target is 16.7% (a '6' on the deviation die) and the chance of a partial hit, or maybe a lucky direct hit, is 16.7% (a '1' on the deviation die). There is no accounting for Troop Quality, adjusting, or anything. Mortars were simply not that inaccurate. The shooters could range those weapons in pretty well within the time frame of an MP turn
#12
Posted 14 December 2005 - 03:22 PM
It is the 1" circular (i.e., shaped like a circle) mortar template. We are talking about the same thing.We realized there was a problem when a mortar was fired at a ridge, and the first ROF went 5" in one direction, and the second ROF went 5" in the other. We assumed the Veteran US shooters had found the cognac cellar of the last village they liberated...GregoryWhat is this "Mortar Circular template"?? The Mortar template provided with the RAW is 1 inch circle (6mm scale). Mortars are resolved individually thus the use of the Deviation dice with each round.
#13
Posted 14 December 2005 - 08:31 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:knoe wrote:It is the 1" circular (i.e., shaped like a circle) mortar template. We are talking about the same thing.We realized there was a problem when a mortar was fired at a ridge, and the first ROF went 5" in one direction, and the second ROF went 5" in the other. We assumed the Veteran US shooters had found the cognac cellar of the last village they liberated...Gregory
#14
Posted 14 December 2005 - 08:35 PM
Yes, we've experianced the same thing in our games. While a bit frustrating for the attacker... (Bad dice roll for the gamer) such is war!! :evil:Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/14 18:35We realized there was a problem when a mortar was fired at a ridge, and the first ROF went 5" in one direction, and the second ROF went 5" in the other. We assumed the Veteran US shooters had found the cognac cellar of the last village they liberated...Gregory
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/14 20:26
#15
Posted 14 December 2005 - 09:52 PM
The problem is as stated above, i.e., it is not very realistic for mortars to be so ineffective. We found a better and simpler method that keeps mortars in the game, as valuable infantry support.Gregorygregoryk wrote:
Yes, we've experianced the same thingin our games. While a bit frustrating for the attacker... (Bad dice roll for the gamer) such is war!! :evil:<br><br>Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/14 18:35We realized there was a problem when a mortar was fired at a ridge, and the first ROF went 5" in one direction, and the second ROF went 5" in the other. We assumed the Veteran US shooters had found the cognac cellar of the last village they liberated...Gregory
#16
Posted 14 December 2005 - 10:12 PM
#17
Posted 14 December 2005 - 10:25 PM
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/14 20:29
#18
Posted 14 December 2005 - 11:30 PM
17% accuracy rates for a direct LOS weapon over the course of a six-minute turn with an ROF=2 (which means better than 8 rounds/minute) does not jibe with anything I have read, and conflicts with the experiences of our Army guys. Being less accurate than offboard firing raised eyebrows, too.In a previous forum, a long, long time ago in a cyberspace far, far away, Jon agreed with me that this should be looked into. But that was then, and this is now.I disagree... I think it's not only realistic but playable in a table top game. I've had games where mortar fire has been very effective and worked well, and I've had games where everything has gone to hell...
Hardly, Kenny, and this is about the RAW anyway, so the comment is irrelevant. We did change this because there were too many drunken mortar shooters in our games, and it made sense to no one that the effectiveness of a primary infantry weapon could not be duplicated in MP.MMG re-writes everything any way.... Just re-write this to suite your "opinion" of realism... :whistle:
It will average a 5" circle, which means it misses by a lot most of the time. It is the randomness and overall inaccuracy that is the problem. British Forward Observers were able to to correct indirect fired, indirect laid fire onto a target in about four rounds, max [ see British Artillery website: http://members.tripo...gelef/index.htm]. Direct LOS weapons are better than that.Seriously, I don't see this being a problem... How often are you going to get the 10" spread (as you described in your example) in a 2 ROF mortar fire?? Usually it'll be a lot less...
Post edited by: gregoryk, at: 2005/12/14 21:31
#19
Posted 15 December 2005 - 06:10 AM
Well then I guess you'll just have to get Jon to comment and make changes.17% accuracy rates for a direct LOS weapon over the course of a six-minute turn with an ROF=2 (which means better than 8 rounds/minute) does not jibe with anything I have read, and conflicts with the experiences of our Army guys. Being less accurate than offboard firing raised eyebrows, too.In a previous forum, a long, long time ago in a cyberspace far, far away, Jon agreed with me that this should be looked into. But that was then, and this is now.
Yes all my comments are "irrelevant" you should know this by now, everyone else does...<grin> The MMG has re-written 50% (my perspective) of the RAW anyway, why should this be different?Hardly, Kenny, and this is about the RAW anyway, so the comment is irrelevant. We did change this because there were too many drunken mortar shooters in our games, and it made sense to no one that the effectiveness of a primary infantry weapon could not be duplicated in MP.
Bottom line is you will have to convience Jon toward any changes in RAW. I think the system is fine (IMHO). It plays well in our games thus far. (Jon will probably make changes just to say I was wrong anyway... HA!)Thanks for the URL... neat site (for WWII!!!).It will average a 5" circle, which means it misses by a lot most of the time. It is the randomness and overall inaccuracy that is the problem. British Forward Observers were able to to correct indirect fired, indirect laid fire onto a target in about four rounds, max [ see British Artillery website: http://members.tripo...gelef/index.htm]. Direct LOS weapons are better than that
Post edited by: knoe, at: 2005/12/15 04:13
#20
Posted 15 December 2005 - 11:51 AM
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