Jump to content


Photo

MP infantry scale (1 stand=squad) not right


  • Please log in to reply
4 replies to this topic

#1 Jerome Mrozak

Jerome Mrozak

    Private

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 22 November 2007 - 11:05 AM

I play 6 mm scale. Mein Panzer's latest revision says one unit = 1 squad (about 10 people). Their recommended base at 6 mm is 1/2 inch square. This doesn't seem right for several reasons. First, suppose I have a small half-track (like SdKfz 250). It can carry a half-squad. I would have to have two HT for each stand of soldiers.Second, isn't this a small size for that many soldiers? They'd have to be squished to about parade-ground spacing. And a round of HE gets them all.Third, a typical squad (well, typical for WW2 Germans, anyways) has a LMG with support rifle people. That is 2-3 people for the MG, a leader or two, and 5-6 rifle men. That easily breaks into two elements (half-squad), like the previous MP rules had. Fourth, this means that each squad-level stand is always a MG stand. Not what I'd think for maneuvering infantry.Fifth, the stand *looks* wrong. Try putting 4 figures, 6mm sized, on a 1/2 inch stand. It looks like a people forest, or a stand of 7-years-war line infantry.Other games of this scale say that 1-inch stands cover the front, etc., better. How about comments on this?Jerome.

#2 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 22 November 2007 - 03:38 PM

javaguy@sbcglobal.net wrote:

I play 6 mm scale. Mein Panzer's latest revision says one unit = 1 squad (about 10 people). Their recommended base at 6 mm is 1/2 inch square. This doesn't seem right for several reasons. First, suppose I have a small half-track (like SdKfz 250). It can carry a half-squad. I would have to have two HT for each stand of soldiers.

Most WWII halftracks carried squads, unless they were special purpose vehicles.

Second, isn't this a small size for that many soldiers? They'd have to be squished to about parade-ground spacing. And a round of HE gets them all.

At 1"=50yds, ten men would have 562.5 sq.ft. each if they occupied 25yds of space. Not squished.

Third, a typical squad (well, typical for WW2 Germans, anyways) has a LMG with support rifle people. That is 2-3 people for the MG, a leader or two, and 5-6 rifle men. That easily breaks into two elements (half-squad), like the previous MP rules had.

You can have an LMG detachment and just a rifle squad, but at this game scale, they would be operating together in support, as they did on the ground. German practice was to have the squad support the LMG, so they did not usually detach.

Fourth, this means that each squad-level stand is always a MG stand. Not what I'd think for maneuvering infantry.

Much to the chagrin of the Allies, it seemed like almost every maneuvering German stand had a machine gun. There are penalties for moving and firing, which tend to make the stand static, but the Germans had a goodly number of MG42's.

Fifth, the stand *looks* wrong. Try putting 4 figures, 6mm sized, on a 1/2 inch stand. It looks like a people forest, or a stand of 7-years-war line infantry.

You should try using either a larger stand (see the MMG AAR's for ideas) or three figures.

Other games of this scale say that 1-inch stands cover the front, etc., better. How about comments on this?

It is always dangerous to reference other games, since they may be perpetuating errors of their own. However, most games using 1"=50yds are not "armor skirmish," i.e., they tend to have one platoon = one stand. And then they equal 1" frontage for a platoon. It is unfortunate that Jon just archived many of the threads, because there was a very good discussion with primary sources on this very topic some time ago. As for reference works that are widely available, the two Osprey Press books on small unit tactics are very good. For books not too widely available, the German Infantry Handbook and the US Military Field Manual are useful. Some of the items that did not make the transition, at least not yet, are all the websites we have accumulated. Here is one on small units, where it talks about defense and offense. The recommendation here is that a squad on defense could optimally hold between 30-40 meters, and attack on an axis of 20-30. Giving it a base size the equivalent of 25yds seems close enough, since theories are always optimistic.Thanks for your comments, and feel free to adjust the game to your liking if you so desire.Cheers,Gregory

#3 Jonathan Coulter

Jonathan Coulter

    Lt Colonel

  • Members
  • 652 posts
  • LocationStephens City, VA

Posted 22 November 2007 - 09:33 PM

Hey Jerome,Allow me to explain infantry a tad.1 Stand equals a Squad of roughly 10 men. If you look at one of the Small Arms Tables, you should see a couple entries, including a Rifle Squad w/LMG. Some countries, like the Germans, will also have a Rifle Squad w/2xLMG. Sometimes the squad will be without an LMG. The single stand represents the various combinations that a squad may come in.Also notice on the Small Arms Tables a column called size. Most squads have a size of 2.0. Now take a look at one of the Equipment Tables and find your Halftrack. Under the Class column there is a sub-column "P" (for Personnel). A SdKfz 251/1 HT has a P-Class of 2, which means it can hold up to a 2.0 size infantry stand.The 1/2" squad base size is what we recommend for 6mm. We've simply found this works the best, BUT, if you want to play with 1" squad bases you certainly can. As long as both sides are based the same you'll be ok. In fact, play a game or two with 1" bases. I bet you'll find the 1/2" bases will work better.Also, as Gregory pointed out, many other rule systems represent a full platoon on a single base. A good reason to use 1 inchers.Now, some of your points are indeed valid and would be solved using the old half-squad method. In fact, the old method worked VERY well. And you are no doubt wondering why we abandoned it. Well, we haven't. The new infantry rules and stand=squad system is FAST and works extremely well along side armor and the other elements of a ground-warfare system. The old system worked extremely well for infantry only games, but got bogged down when you tossed in armor, etc.So, what we did is put in a fast playing infantry system that works well along side our fast playing armor system. BUT ... we are working on a game called Meine Truppen. This new rule system will take the old half-squad rule system and expand it into a very flexible infantry game. PLUS ... Meine Truppen and Mein Panzer will function as drop-ins for one another. If you play MP and want a very detailed infantry component ... drop-in MT. If you are playing MT and want to add a few tanks ... drop-in MP.And remember ... I tried to design MP to be flexible enough so that players can tweak the system for their own playing style. If you like the old system better, you may want to continue to use it. Or, when we're ready to get MT off the ground ("should" be early 2008) we'll be requesting playtesters and you may want to get involved with that.Enjoy!

#4 Sacha

Sacha

    Lt Colonel

  • Members
  • 724 posts
  • LocationJakarta, Indonesia

Posted 25 November 2007 - 03:46 PM

one other thought. MMG tends to bounce back and forth between 1"=50 yards and 1"=25 yards. We use penny bases for our squad stands which has a 3/4" diameter. seems to work out well for both scales.

#5 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 09 December 2007 - 09:54 PM

Here is the image Sacha had in his previous post that somehow was disconnected. Posted ImageThis chart is the justification for continuing to use ¾" round bases even with 25yds to the inch.Gregory




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users