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Immobilized Armor and Tanks with multiple main guns - WWII


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#1 Greg Mc

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 12:51 AM

I have been playing small scenarios against myself, refamiliarizing with the rules and delving deeper into the advanced mechanics. It is going splendidly!

 

I encountered two situations in my last scenario that brought up questions I could not find answers to in the book.

 

Scenario 1:

Armor receives a hit, and that hit results in a 'Immobile-Supress' result on the kill table. The unit is now immobilized. This happened, however, one turn 1 due to an extremely lucky armored car shot and hit. This resulted in a now immobilized tank sitting in the rear of the play map for the entirety of the scenario. The other tank in the unit was forced to move out of command range in order to assist in the fight. The scenario ran for ~8 turns or so. This immobilized tank had 0 engagement after turn 2.

 

Question 1:

How could a tank possibly recover from a "immobile-supress' hit? Did I miss something in the ruleset? Or has anyone come up with nifty house rules? I completely understand that an immobilizing hit can be from many situations (from drivers getting knocked out to engines receiving crippling damage to tracks being knocked out). I was wondering if anyone ever worked out a house rule to where a troop quality role could result in determining whether the damage is something that can be fixed (albeit over multiple turns) or something that is truly immobilizing (like engine damage). This could include crew members dismounting to repair whatever, resulting in no tank fire and increased vulnerability.

 

Scenario 2:

The British and US forces have the Lee/Grant variants. I ran into a situation where a Lee/Grant had a target on its side, and to its front! How does firing the turret mounted 37mm separately from the forward facing 75mm work? Is there a negative or is it even allowed in the ruleset? Afterall, it was 2 separate positions and crew members.

 

Thank you all for your help.

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#2 Kenny Noe

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 06:42 AM

Mein Panzer rules are extremely flexible with the inclusion of "house rules".  We don't claim to know "everything" and there are instances where moments like these popup.  We have always listen to our players and when items like this arise and makes better sense than what's explained in the rules that may become incorporated in the official rules.  This said there is nothing preventing a GM from using his own flavor of the rules and we encourage what ever allow gamers the most fun.  This is a "game" after all....

 

 

 

This said, I'll try to answer as best as possible (my 0.02¢)

 

Scenario 2:

The British and US forces have the Lee/Grant variants. I ran into a situation where a Lee/Grant had a target on its side, and to its front! How does firing the turret mounted 37mm separately from the forward facing 75mm work? Is there a negative or is it even allowed in the ruleset? Afterall, it was 2 separate positions and crew members.

 

The short answer is fire both during the vehicle activation.

 

If a weapons platform (Lee/Grant) has multiple firing systems and the crew to support each, then the platform gets 2 shots (one per firing system) per activation.  In this case the 37mm turreted gun could turn to face the enemy on it's flank or rear and engage while the 75mm cannon with it's limited traverse (15° L/R I believe) should only fire in the forwards position relative to the vehicle.

 

In cases where there is one gunner, then the player chooses which firing system is "fired".  Like main gun or coax mg.

 

 

 

 

Question 1:

How could a tank possibly recover from a "immobile-supress' hit? Did I miss something in the ruleset? Or has anyone come up with nifty house rules? I completely understand that an immobilizing hit can be from many situations (from drivers getting knocked out to engines receiving crippling damage to tracks being knocked out). I was wondering if anyone ever worked out a house rule to where a troop quality role could result in determining whether the damage is something that can be fixed (albeit over multiple turns) or something that is truly immobilizing (like engine damage). This could include crew members dismounting to repair whatever, resulting in no tank fire and increased vulnerability.

 

The answer to this is a bit more ambiguous....

 

Advance Game Mechanics Page 6.4  states (Removal of "Bogged") that a vehicle immobilized from fire (direct hit) "may not be removed or repaired".

 

Engineering Drop-In Page 17.2, table "Typical Cargo Units" mentions "Parts" item to repair damage or immobilization.  (There's also a "Fuel" item to refuel a platoon, but we don't count fuel consumption...  hmmmm)

 

A bit of background.

 

Mein Panzer Core Rules was initially designed as a quick play tank vs. tank game with Combined Arms elements that could be "added" (Drop-In) to the game should the GM desire.  We (ODGW) originally had designs on MPC rules evolving to include campaign style play.  As I recall, adding this option to the rules continued to delay it's publication so the "campaign" aspect was shelved until some time in the future.  The Typical Cargo Units table items noted above are examples of trying to incorporate a campaign system in the rules that never was removed.

 

So in the rules as written today, an immobilized platform (vehicle) is a pillbox where it sits until destroyed.

 

 

 

This said and until we get off our collective @$$ re: Campaign Rules,  feel free to implement whatever house rule you like.  ... maybe we'll steal them.   <grin>

 

Hope this helps



#3 Greg Mc

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 09:18 AM

Thanks Kenny,

This reply is exactly what I was looking for. My question pertaining the immobilization is definitely due to looking for campaign style play down the road. As for the Lee/Grant question, my immediate thought was what you just described, but I wanted to make sure I was not missing a key piece in the ruleset!

I will admit, I did not read the engineering drop in. It makes total sense that something would be mentioned there! The more and more I dive into the ruleset depths, the more and more I feel like I must buy more minis to make up for those rules...

I have not seen you guys at the HMGS cons in a couple years, probably due to COVID. Any plans to go to Historicon this year? I am hoping to be ready to host a game by then!

#4 Kenny Noe

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 09:45 AM

Yes,  ODGW will be at Historicon 2023.  Stop by for a chat!!



#5 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 16 March 2023 - 03:01 PM

My understanding of immobilized is that the vehicle has suffered a track or possibly engine hit resulting in the vehicle being unable to move.  The crew may stay with the tank or possibly bail out and try to head to a safer place.  There are no specific rules for crew bailouts in the game.  An immobilized tank can still fire if targets present themselves in Mein Panzer.

Keep in mind that in most of these games, the time for the whole engagement is only about an hour .... maybe a little more or a little less.  A tank would not have time to get back into action if immobilized in that short period of time.  A recovery vehicle, if available, might have time to get there, hook up, and tow the vehicle out of the combat zone but either way, that tank is probably not going to contribute anything to the fight that is going on around it.



#6 Kenny Noe

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Posted 17 March 2023 - 05:46 AM

Actually, there are Bailout rules in MPC.  Chapter 12 Moral Drop-In p. 12.4.  While I don't typically use the Moral rules in my game, I do allow bail out rolls, and to make things easy it's just a TQ check for players (house rule bastardizing the MP rule) <grin>



#7 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 03:06 PM

I stand corrected, Kenny. I did not realize that there were bail-out rules for Mein Panzer already.  That is good to know.  I have not used the printed morale rules yet so did not reference the bail-out rules.  I have not used any bail-out rules in my previous games.  Now.... if I could get GHQ to make some bailed-out crews that would be great.



#8 Kenny Noe

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 05:08 PM

GHQ in 6mm really any standing infantry should work....  <grin>



#9 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 09:34 AM

The pragmatist in me says you are probably right Ken.  The purist in me says ..... we need bailed out tankers in 6mm!  LOL!



#10 Greg Mc

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 11:14 AM

Thanks for this insight guys. As for looking through moral rules, I definitely need to look/read through them.

I really want to create scenarios and games that feel satisfying and as realistic in expectations as that will allow. I believe I read in a different posting on here, Peter, that you said you were a tanker during your career at some point? That makes that insight into the time frames and so on especially helpful. Thank you for that!




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