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Man-handling of heavy weapons and guns


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#1 Mark 1

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:38 PM

Are there any provisions in the Core Rules for the movement rate of man-handled heavy weapons?My greatest interest is in regard to AT guns, but the same interest might come up for mortars or artillery guns in less common circumstances.It was common practice in WW2 to unhitch an AT gun while in a fully defiladed location, then man-handle the gun into firing position. To wit:The Germans were known to use this tactic very agressively early in the war, even pushing their Pak36s forward as if they were little assault guns to support dismounted infantry attacks. The same with their infantry guns -- both 75mm, which is reasonable I suppose, and 150mm, which is most certainly NOT reasonable (but they did it anyways).The Soviets were known to build defensive positions such that they could hold their 45mm guns fully hidden within entrenchments, and then push them up ramps to firing positions to begin engaging only when panzers came within range. For reference I would point to the Osprey Series book: Soviet Field Fortifications 1941-45, by Gordon Rotman.The Japanese 70mm gun was almost exclusively transported by manpower during the pacific island campaigns, sometimes pulled along on its wheels, sometimes dis-assembled into several pack loads.I suppose I may have missed it in the rules. Wouldn't be the first time. But I'd be greatful to have it pointed out to me.Thanks.-Mark 1

#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 01:04 AM

Hi Mark,Chapter 6 Ground Movement, page 6.4 first column, Gun Movement section states:"Wheeled guns up to 57mm may be turned up to 90/ in place, or prolonged up to 1", and fired in the same turn. This reduces the gun’s ROF by 1 and counts as movement for resolving Overwatch. Wheeled guns greater than 57mm may not turn or prolong and firein the same turn. Towed guns on a rotating carriage, such as the British 25 pdr used during World War 2, may turn any number of degrees without cost and may fire normally. Such turned does still count as movement for resolving Overwatch.Guns on fixed static mounts may not be turned at all during the game."Hope this helps! :)

#3 Mark 1

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 07:36 AM

Bob:Thanks for the reply. A bit more, if I may...bbenge wrote:

Chapter 6 Ground Movement, page 6.4 first column, Gun Movement section states:"Wheeled guns up to 57mm may be turned up to 90/ in place, or prolonged up to 1", and fired in the same turn. This reduces the gun’s ROF by 1 and counts as movement for resolving Overwatch. Wheeled guns greater than 57mm may not turn or prolong and firein the same turn.

So ... I now have what can be done in terms of moving and shooting in the same turn.But what about movement period? If there is no shot taken (nor intended) during the turn?More specifically: "Wheeled guns greater than 57mm may not turn or prolong and fire in the same turn. "This would seem to suggest that guns greater than 57mm CAN turn or prolong 1 inch, but not turn or prolong AND fire in the same turn?So from this should I imply that all guns (that aren't in fixed installations) can turn 90 degrees, or move 1 inch, during a turn? And that only those 57mm and smaller can do this AND fire during the same turn?

Hope this helps! :)

Oh, it does. I assure you it does.-Mark 1

#4 Bob Benge

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:49 AM

Mark, you are correct, all wheeled guns can turn 90 degrees or move 1 inch during an ACTIVATION. This means they could move 2 inches OR spin 90 degrees and move 1 inch OR move 1 inch and turn 90 degrees IF you use both the standard action as a move action AND also use the bonus move during the guns activation. :)

#5 Mark 1

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:11 AM

bbenge wrote:

Mark, you are correct, all wheeled guns can turn 90 degrees or move 1 inch during an ACTIVATION. This means they could move 2 inches OR spin 90 degrees and move 1 inch OR move 1 inch and turn 90 degrees IF you use both the standard action as a move action AND also use the bonus move during the guns activation.

Bob:Great. That's just what I need to know.So is that somewhere in the rules or data book that you can point out to me, so that I might highlight it for future reference? (If not, I'll just print your message and keep it in my book...)And so, continuing my struggle to understand the mechanics of AT guns (and mortars, and artillery pieces), is there not also an actiion required to set the gun up for firing after moving, or to prepare it for movement before moving?-Mark 1

#6 Bob Benge

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 02:27 AM

Mark,It is not spelled out, but inferred from the rule I quoted you.As to gun setup refer to the following: Chapter 11, Infantry Drop-In, page 11.4, 3rd column, Miscellaneous Section, 2nd paragraph, Crew Served Weapon Setup;"Because of their bulk, crew served weapons must always be set up prior to their use. This requires the team to use a Setup Action. Examples include heavy machine guns, medium machine guns, 80mm mortars and larger, and ground mounted ATGMs." Note that ATGs and Artillery would qualify here as well. :)

#7 gregoryk

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:42 AM

The key thing to remember here is the difference in Mein Panzer between an action, Standard and Bonus, and an activation, which consists of two actions. I have found keeping those definitions in your head helps a lot with understanding large portions of the rules.Cheers,Gregory

#8 Mark 1

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:46 AM

Thanks for your help. I really like to focus on combined arms warfare, and AT guns were a big part of that in WW2. So I'm really trying to develop a full understanding of how to use them under the MP rules.A couple more questions on the man-handling of guns, if I may:Q1: How do I apply terrain effects to the AT gun movement cost? Is the "1 inch prolong" a normal movement "pip" as per the rules, so that the terrain cost in pips is applied as normal? Are the guns classified as infantry, or wheeled vehicles? Since I understand that I pay my terrain penalty pip costs per action (not per activation), that means a gun can not be moved at all in any terrain which costs a penalty of 1 pip. Is that right? Or is this "1 inch prolong" a constant?Q2: With the 57mm and smaller guns, how do I account for the set-up action under the move-and-shoot rule?Here is what I'm struggling to figure out:Case 1 - Larger gun (bigger than 57mm):The gun has not already been "set-up" prior to this turn.I activate the unit which includes this gun. I move the gun 1 inch for its bonus move. Now I can again move the gun 1 inch for its standard action, for a total of 2 inches moved during the activation.- OR -Now I can set the gun up for its standard action, so that next time I activate the gun, it is ready to fire.Did I get that right? Seems direct enough that even I can get it.Case 2 - Smaller gun (57mm or smaller):The gun has not already been "set-up" prior to this turn.I activate the unit which includes this gun.I move the gun 1 inch for its bonus move.I fire the gun for its action, per the rule described above about moving 1 inch and firing in the same turn.So ... when did I set up the gun??? Do 57mm and smaller ATGs not require a set-up action? Or have I mis-understood, and does the movement of the gun take place even if the gun is already set-up -- so that a set-up gun can be moved and shot in the same turn, but a gun that has not been set-up can only be moved and set-up?-Mark 1

#9 Bob Benge

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:05 AM

Okay Mark,Q1: Man-handled AT guns movement is a constant. so you should always be able to move a gun 1" per movement action.Q2: All guns require a Setup action that must be done using your standard action. So an AT Gun cannot setup and fire using the move and shoot rule as setup and fire actions both require a standard action and you only have one of these per activation. This would be evident as all AT Guns have no OM2 value which means that they cannot move and shoot or visa-versa. Note that prolonging the gun is not considered move and shoot for determining OM1 (non-moving fire) or OM2 (moving fire).Case 1 is not correct as a Gun Must setup before it can do anything else. See Case 2 explanation. :)Case 2: the gun MUST be setup before you can prolong or shoot. If you were towing this gun prior to Case 2, then the vehicle would have to unload the gun using an unload action then the gun would have to be setup using the setup action. Then you could prolong and shoot. Now a gun would either start a game setup or would start being towed. If a gun is being towed, then the gun would have to be setup when it is unloaded prior to doing anything else. Here is a typical turn for a gun that is towed. A Vehicle towing a gun activates. The Vehicle tows the gun to desired location using its bonus move action. The vehicle then uses its Standard Action as an Unload action to unhook the gun at the location. The gun may now start its activation. Since the gun was towed to its location the gun must forfeit its Bonus Move action to account for the vehicle towing it. This leaves the gun its Standard Action. The gun must now use its Standard Action as a Setup Action to get the gun into service. The Gun and its towing vehicle are now finished activating. Note that a vehicle could begin its activation by unloading the gun first, then move away. This would preserve the gun's Bonus Move action allowing you to setup the gun first then prolong it 1", but the gun must be setup first prior to prolonging it. Setup is considered to be the unloading of ammo and equipment for the crew to sustain the gun in combat.




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