Jump to content


Photo

Line Astern Distance


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Carl Christensen

Carl Christensen

    Private

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:57 AM

When ships are in a line astern formation, how far should they be apart? Historically, how far apart were ships and for this game, what is a good distance?Regards,Carl

#2 DAVID THORNLEY

DAVID THORNLEY

    Private

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 23 January 2009 - 07:01 PM

At a rough guide, figure that there would be about two shiplengths between ships, so that the line would be about 1/3 ships and 2/3 gap.

#3 Cpt M

Cpt M

    Colonel

  • ODGW Staff
  • 941 posts

Posted 26 January 2009 - 09:59 PM

Thornley pretty much hit it on the head; 2 ship lengths between ships is a good rule of thumb. But if you're talking about the actual ship models, then you'll need to keep in mind that the models are considerably larger than the 'ground scale'. If you're using 1cm = 100yds, the 'ground scale' works out to approximately 1/9000 and 1/6000 models would be 1.5 times larger than the 'ground scale' while 1/2400 models work out to around 3.75 times larger. So, given the oversize nature of the models, you can safely place them base to base when in line ahead formation.

#4 Dave Franklin

Dave Franklin

    Captain

  • Members
  • 296 posts
  • LocationColorado Springs CO

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:24 AM

There are two reasons not to put the ships base-to-base, i.e. spread them out a little.The first is this might result in the distance between the two ships being less than 5cm, which means if strictly playing by the rules, there's a danger of collision. There have been posts about exempting ships in formation from this rule, you need to decide what you want to do.The other reason is to make a less tempting, or vulnerable, target for torpedoes than an almost solid wall of ship models...

#5 Cpt M

Cpt M

    Colonel

  • ODGW Staff
  • 941 posts

Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:14 AM

The first is this might result in the distance between the two ships being less than 5cm, which means if strictly playing by the rules, there's a danger of collision. There have been posts about exempting ships in formation from this rule, you need to decide what you want to do.

For ships operating within the same division the 500yd collision rule is waived. It's assumed that the following ships adjust their movements to that of the division flag and the ship immediately ahead. As an example, the RN's Grand Fleet instructions specified a 2 cable (approx 400yds) separation.

#6 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:38 AM

Coastal wrote:

The first is this might result in the distance between the two ships being less than 5cm, which means if strictly playing by the rules, there's a danger of collision. There have been posts about exempting ships in formation from this rule, you need to decide what you want to do.

For ships operating within the same division the 500yd collision rule is waived. It's assumed that the following ships adjust their movements to that of the division flag and the ship immediately ahead. As an example, the RN's Grand Fleet instructions specified a 2 cable (approx 400yds) separation.

This is true, but co_dyver points out

The other reason is to make a less tempting, or vulnerable, target for torpedoes than an almost solid wall of ship models...

is a very good reason to leave some distance between them. One person who has seen his battleline targeted numerous times assures you this is a concern.Cheers,Gregory

#7 Carl Christensen

Carl Christensen

    Private

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:37 PM

Here is a hypothetical situation. Assume that the 500 yard rule is waved for ships in the same division. If a ship in the front or middle of the formation is hit and is forced to drop out due to it's speed, do the trailing ships "slip around" to the port or starboard side of the damaged ship?Carl

#8 Dave Franklin

Dave Franklin

    Captain

  • Members
  • 296 posts
  • LocationColorado Springs CO

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:48 PM

"For ships operating within the same division the 500yd collision rule is waived. It's assumed that the following ships adjust their movements to that of the division flag and the ship immediately ahead. As an example, the RN's Grand Fleet instructions specified a 2 cable (approx 400yds) separation."Is this a special rule for Fleet Action Imminent? If it's in the WWII rules, I sure missed it (if it is, please provide rule number/page number reference - thanks).

#9 Jim O'Neil

Jim O'Neil

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • 217 posts

Posted 28 January 2009 - 05:13 PM

It is in the GQ 3 rules, and yes the trailing ships slip around it unless the referee is cruel ... Mwa Ha Ha...

#10 Dave Franklin

Dave Franklin

    Captain

  • Members
  • 296 posts
  • LocationColorado Springs CO

Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:58 PM

Well, here's what I found in the original GQ3 rules on page 1-4 under 1.3 Collisions, Grounding and Towing:"Any time vessels (other than SC) pass within 500 yards of each other, the players commanding them must dice for collision. Three closing maneuvers are exempted: passing a towline, replenishing underway and rescuing survivors."In Amendment 1 on page 1-2 under the same heading it states:"Minimum Separation Ships steaming in formation with 500 yards or more between ships provides enough separation for a ship to alter course without collision if another ship in the formation slows or slews off course when hit. The ADVANCE section of the Ship Turn Indicator provides a handy way to measure this minimum separation. A captain following within his ship’s advance interval would have to test for collision."So maybe FAI has a special rule to allow 400yds between ships, but it seems for WWII 500yds is the minimum unless playing with the optional Answering the Helm rule, which makes it either 100yds for ships moving less than oe equal to 10kts, or half the hull length for 1/2400 scale etc.?

#11 Jim O'Neil

Jim O'Neil

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • 217 posts

Posted 29 January 2009 - 04:41 PM

OK, Not sure where... but ships in the same formation are exempted.

#12 Kenneth D. Hall

Kenneth D. Hall

    Private

  • Members
  • 28 posts
  • LocationFlyover Country

Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:51 AM

Interesting discussion. It seems to me that the risk of collision between ships, even of the same division, was nontrivial. Under ideal conditions of visibility, it may not have been a problem, but in night, fog, rain, battle, or any combination of the above, I wonder. The Germans practiced the Gefechtskertwendung -- a lot -- before they ever tried it in action.Now, giving the other side of the argument its due, one could argue that the same-division exemption is based on the fact that divisions practiced maneuvering as a unit. If there is reason to suspect they did not, one could put in an exception to the exception, as a special scenario rule.

#13 Blue Leader

Blue Leader

    Major

  • Deactivated
  • 400 posts

Posted 03 September 2009 - 04:01 PM

ping!

#14 Lonnie Gill

Lonnie Gill

    Captain

  • ODGW Staff
  • 301 posts

Posted 03 October 2009 - 10:47 AM

The text in Amendment 1 was changed to be the same as in FAI. The intent is to streamline movement by allowing a commander exhibiting normal precautions to move the ships in his division without having to be hypersensitive to the nearest half mm. In fact, the minimum distance in a given situation depends on conditions, formation speed and the turning circle of the ships involved. This has been standardized in rule Section 1.3 as 500 yds to enable you to concentrate on the combat situation. Your OODs on each ship are responsible for ensuring they maintain the proper interval details.LONNIE

#15 W. Clark

W. Clark

    Captain

  • Members
  • 392 posts
  • LocationOregon, out in the sticks

Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:35 PM

It is in the GQ 3 rules, and yes the trailing ships slip around it unless the referee is cruel ... Mwa Ha Ha...

Been there, cost me a Fletcher class DD in a game last July when I ran up the stern of another torpedoed DD in my division. I well remember the sinking sensation I got upon hearing the ruling.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users