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County Class Cruisers


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#1 Neil Foster

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 02:18 AM

Afternoon again,Looking over the ship cards for the RN, I have noticed that HMS Norfolk and Dorsetshire the last batch of county class cruisers are graded as "CL" where as the other Counties are marked "CA", is this intentional? If so I presume there is a significant difference in the armour and protection scheme of the last two Counties compared to the previous batches.Have also noted that the York class is graded as "CL" but from the limited reading I have done it would suggested they had a better armour and proctection scheme than the Counties.If anyone has any information on this matter or can point me to a good book I would be grateful. On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any advice on how to deal with the Graf Spee? As I will be commanding the RN in this encounter.CheersIggy

#2 Cpt M

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 08:10 AM

Looking over the ship cards for the RN, I have noticed that HMS Norfolk and Dorsetshire the last batch of county class cruisers are graded as "CL" where as the other Counties are marked "CA", is this intentional? If so I presume there is a significant difference in the armour and protection scheme of the last two Counties compared to the previous batches.

This is correct. As built, the protection scheme for all three batches of 'County' cruisers were basically the same and generally rather weak (a trait shared by most of the early Treaty cruisers). Between 1935 and 1939, the first batch (with the exception of Canberra) was rebuilt with additional armor (raising, in game terms, their rating from CL to CA). The next batch was scheduled for an even more extensive rebuild, but only London was completed due to the outbreak of WWII. (The rebuild of London was considered unsuccessful due to her hull being overstressed by the additional weight added. The situation required two additional refits and wasn't rectified until 1943). The remaining ships remained unmodified.

Have also noted that the York class is graded as "CL" but from the limited reading I have done it would suggested they had a better armour and proctection scheme than the Counties.

While the armor scheme was somewhat better than that of the 'County' class, it was still less than that used on similar classes of CAs (for example, the Yorks only had a partial armor belt as opposed to a full armor belt). In game terms, this scheme would still qualify as CL.

On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any advice on how to deal with the Graf Spee? As I will be commanding the RN in this encounter.

Given the situation, your best option is to use your superior speed to close the range as rapidly as possible to 15k (for Exeter) or 12K (for the CLs) so you have a chance of effectively hurting Spee (remember, once you can penetrate Spee's CA armor, having only two main gun turrets becomes a huge liability). Also, if you charge straight in (bow on), you're firing 2 D12s of 8" and 4 D12s of 6" against either 3 D12s of 11" and 2 D12s of 5.9" (if she shows her broadside) or 1 D12 of 11" (if she shows her ends). And if she shows her broadside, that'll increase your closure rate even more. Finally, any non-penetrating hits will still cause half hull hits (cutting her speed) and strip off her secordaries. Expect to lose 1, possibly 2 of your ships (those 11" will hurt!). One last thing: if you let Spee keep the range long, she'll cut you apart.

#3 Neil Foster

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 11:01 PM

Thanks for your feedback Coastal most informative. I had just assumed that a class would be built to roughly the same specs. Had not thought of refits.Ok don't you just love artifical constraints on ship design.However the lack of armour didn't seem to have much bearing on the game against the Graf Spee. You were right, only two main turrets was a major disadvantage to German ship. Inside the 3 first turns of the game, fire only from the Exeter, as I didn't want to modifiy her gunnery by throwing in the unpenetrating fire of the Leanders. Effectively took the Graf Spee out the game: engine hit, hull damage, dct out and both main turrets destroyed. In exchange Exeter lost two turrets and took 2 hull boxes of damage whilest the Leanders had received no fire. Game was conceded in 20 mins by the German Capt.It would seem I have taken my ability to roll less than 4 on a D6, 75% of the time and translated it into the equivelant for D12's. This was again reflected when we played Hunting the Beast from VAS but on a 8 by 6 table. After turn 1 the Prince of Wales had swept the main turrets clean off the decks of the Prinz Eugen and the Hood had destroyed two main turrets and inflicted hull damage on the Bismark, all for no hits in return. Again the German Capt conceded.We are not sure if I was just outrageously lucky or if we need to consider using D20's rather than D12 when there are only a couple of ships per side. From both sides point of view the games were not fun. Oh, in both games the dice gods decided it was nice weather, again my ability to roll very low helped.CheersIggy.

#4 Cpt M

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:14 AM

However the lack of armour didn't seem to have much bearing on the game against the Graf Spee. You were right, only two main turrets was a major disadvantage to German ship. Inside the 3 first turns of the game, fire only from the Exeter, as I didn't want to modifiy her gunnery by throwing in the unpenetrating fire of the Leanders. Effectively took the Graf Spee out the game: engine hit, hull damage, dct out and both main turrets destroyed. In exchange Exeter lost two turrets and took 2 hull boxes of damage whilest the Leanders had received no fire. Game was conceded in 20 mins by the German Capt.

Sounds like you were able to close up on Spee without too much pain (good for you, bad for the German! He must've had some less than great die rolls!). I've run this scenario several times (makes for a challenging yet easy game) and the results have been about even for the two sides. I generally start at a loooong range, generally 21k to 24k (the historical conditions were near perfect with a light breeze, no clouds and perfect visibility; you could even justify starting at 30K), so the run in for the RN can be dicey with Spee getting a goodly number of shots in before she has to worry about penetrating hits (of course, these are very low percentage shots, but you take what you can get!). The results of the games have run the gamut from RN getting shot to pieces and Spee barely dinged to just the opposite (like your game). It can get to be a nail biter with every hit (both sides) having great consequences (especially if a speed loss is involved). In one memorable game, Exeter early on took 2 hull hits that dropped her speed to 26kts (Spee's top speed) and everyone thought it was over. Then Spee accumulated enough non-penetrating hull hits to drop her to 21kts and at that point it got wild. The battle ended with Exeter and Ajax sunk (Ajax took a magazine hit with unfortunate, but spectacular results) and with Achilles with 2 turrets remaining sinking a very crippled (but with 1 main turret still working) Spee at about 6k range. Achilles barely survived with only 1 hull box remaining.

We are not sure if I was just outrageously lucky or if we need to consider using D20's rather than D12 when there are only a couple of ships per side. From both sides point of view the games were not fun. Oh, in both games the dice gods decided it was nice weather, again my ability to roll very low helped.

I'm pretty sure the Dice Gods were smiling on you that day! I wouldn't move to a D20; my experience with too many games to count has been that the D12 reflects actual results (even with small actions). And remember, the fickle dice may like you today but tomorrow it could be a different matter altogether...

#5 Neil Foster

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:16 AM

Hi Coastal,Thanks for the response, we were hoping for a nail biting game as well but dice happened.Ok we will persist with D12's. Iggy.

#6 Richard Cornwell

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:47 AM

I've played the River Plate twice. Both time the Graf Spee went down, although Exeter has ended as a wreck, and the Leanders have had varying amounts of damage. The second time the Spee seemed particularly unlucky in its hit rolls.What the correct strategy for the Graf Spee is I'm not sure. In the real battle it made use of smoke screens, which we haven't tried. They may allow the Germans to focus on one ship, while blocking the others LOS.

#7 Neil Foster

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 08:16 AM

Hi,Glad you won though.Well as a relatively new player to this game I find smoke quite difficult to employ to any useful affect. Hope you have more success.Iggy.PS. Don't suppose you live anywhere near Tyneside?




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