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Volley Fire problems


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#1 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 04:08 AM

During couple of games we played recently several questions apperared regarding volley fire:1) Volley Fire, Overwatch and dispersing smoke -- The smoke disperses at the beginning of the unit's activation (before any other action?).- Stands revealed by dispersing smoke do trigger OW fire.- Assuming that the unit behind smoke declares Volley Fire what happens first? A. Smoke disperses, the OW fire is resolved, Volley fire doesn't help here.B. Smoke disperses, Volley fire is resolved, what survived may fire OW.2) "Volley firing" smoke - Some of our UK playes developed a rather nasty tactic of "breaking through" enemy's (Panthers usually :)) overwatch. As the typical late war UK tank platoon consists of a single Firefly and two "normal" Shermans, when facing overwatching enemy they use to declare a Volley Fire in such a way that the Firefly fires AP at the enemy while the other two tanks throw smoke rounds just in front of the platoon so after the "volley" the enemy has almost no chance to return fire. Is that legal?Personally I think that it should be allowed (even as I play Germans) but I'll appreciate your opinion.MZ

#2 Trotsky

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 06:07 AM

I am relatively new to Mein Panzer but I did read a thread somewhere about possibly changing smoke dispersal to the end of the activation phase (could be an optional rule) - this is the way we have been playing it, seems to allow good historical tactics to be employed. Doesn't really help the volley fire question though.

#3 Sacha

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:29 PM

Hi there,I believe we, MMG lift the smoke, or disperse it at the end of the activation by the unti that generated it, or at the begining of the turn after it was generated.As for volley fire, not sure where that came, from. I know a side can declare volley fire or "firefight" if the unit being hit has been attcked by the same unit more than twice.Example....The firefly and two Sherman's on OW fire at the Panthers, which are currently activated and moving in there direction. Now its the UK side to activate, naturally the Sherman's will activate and fires again at the Panthers. Now if the UK player wins initiative for the next turn, obviously they would want to activate the Shermans to fire again. Now the panthers can declare a firefight and fire back. one tank at a time in the 2 engaged units. If they want to fire smoke...so be it.Hopefully I have not muddied things up. I'm sure Gregory will correct me.

#4 Marcin Zgiernicki

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 11:43 PM

Sacha wrote:

As for volley fire, not sure where that came, from. I know a side can declare volley fire or "firefight" if the unit being hit has been attcked by the same unit more than twice.

I mean the "Volley Fire" rule from the Direct Fire Chapter, page 7.7.The "discovery of (volley)fire" literally killed overwatching in my group. MZ

Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/12/07 22:19

#5 Bob Benge

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 11:04 AM

Hey MZ,Sorry for the delay in answering. I have been real busy with home life right now. Let me tackle your questions and I hope I get them right.

1) Volley Fire, Overwatch and dispersing smoke -Q. The smoke disperses at the beginning of the unit's activation (before any other action?).

A. As per the current rules, yes. Individual smoke rounds as fired by tanks, mortars or guns not fired in batteries is removed as soon as the firing unit is activated. Smoke fired by a battery is dispersed (i.e. one smoke marker is removed the rest are moved in the direction of the wind at the speed of the wind) when the battery is activated. Note that this is changing in the upcoming revision of the Core Rules. Smoke will be dispersed at the end of the firing units next activation. Example: a Sherman fires a smoke round on turn 3. The smoke marker will be removed on turn 4 AFTER the Sherman has activated and completed its actions.

- Q.Stands revealed by dispersing smoke do trigger OW fire.

A. Yes. Chapter 7, page 7.6, 3rd column, near top; "Stands revealed by the dispersion of smoke may trigger opportunity fire."

- Q.Assuming that the unit behind smoke declares Volley Fire what happens first?A. Smoke disperses, the OW fire is resolved, Volley fire doesn't help here.B. Smoke disperses, Volley fire is resolved, what survived may fire OW.

A. As per the rules, as is right now, I would say A. Since the smoke dispersion triggers the overwatch then the overwatch would go first simply because it is the first thing that the Overwatch unit can react to. Effective Volley Fire is used to delay Overwatch fire if the eligable stands did a Fire-Move action (Can be used by Fire-Halt action stands but really gains little benefit other than the -1 modifier for Morale Checks) since, quote from Chapter 7, page 7.8 3rd column near top; "Any enemy on Overwatch may react only AFTER all shots in the Volley have been worked out." I use the word "Effective" since taking Op Fire must be triggered by an enemy action, Op Firing after an attacking stand fires (at the Op Firing stand, anyway) puts the Op Firer at a disadvantage. Whereas, if the Op Firer is shooting at a target that moved prior to its declared shot at the Op Firer would have the advantage of the first shot. Thus, if 5 x Shermans declared Volley Fire, declared their targets then did a Fire Move Action (Use the Bonus Move to Fire and the Standard Action to Shoot, then the target stands, lets say 2 x Panthers, if on Overwatch, would not be able to fire untilthe Volley Fire of the 5 x Shermans is resolved. This allows the Shermans to use the movement to close or open the range and/or duck into cover while taking the shot. Volley Fire can be used by stands in Fire-Halt, but is not nearly as effective simply because the OP Fire stands can only react to the fire so the Volley Firing stands gain no true advantage since they cannot be fired upon until their shots are worked out.Hope this helps some... :)

Post edited by: bbenge, at: 2005/12/08 09:06

#6 gregoryk

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:28 AM

mazgier wrote:

Sacha wrote:

As for volley fire, not sure where that came, from. I know a side can declare volley fire or "firefight" if the unit being hit has been attcked by the same unit more than twice.

I mean the "Volley Fire" rule from the Direct Fire Chapter, page 7.7.The "discovery of (volley)fire" literally killed overwatching in my group. MZ<br><br>Post edited by: mazgier, at: 2005/12/07 22:19

That's the reason why we never used it it seemed unecessarily outside the rules. Never missed it, either.Gregory

#7 Bob Benge

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 09:29 AM

Note also that Volley Fire is an Optional Rule. ;)

#8 Sacha

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 03:31 PM

I "read" this article Gregory sent me on German Armored Tactics. (I'm sure he just fell over in his chair). And according to their tactics firing on the move for them was considered a wasted shot. Scoot and shoot was a preferred tactic. Moving to find terrain from which to take a preferred shot was preferred. I don't know if this fits into the volley fire thing. But like you said its an optional rule.Just wondered how often it was used as a tactic during the war by any nation. May not have been the best use of ammo.Just have some momentary brain farts.(is there a symbol for that?)




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