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Crusader I vs. panzer IVE


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#1 nexus6

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 04:45 AM

Panzer IV E has AP and HEAT rounds. HEAT are very effective on each range what makes panzer IV tough beast compared to Crusader I. Panzer IVE kill value is 0 for range 60' and 3 for range 36'. Crusader I kill value for range 60' is -12 and for range 36'  -5. Adventage of panzer IV is obvious but cost of tanks dont show it - panzer IVE cost is 94, Crusader I is 95. I feel something is here wrong.



#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 07:29 PM

Hi Nexus6,

 

You are judging the Point values solely on guns and penetration. The formula used for the BPVs judges each vehicle on all of its stats and includes HEAT, but doesn't include Special Ammo. Special Ammo must be purchased separately. This Table was accidentally left out of the WW2 Data Book for Chapter 53:

 

 

1. Point Values for ALL special ammo (including Panzerschrek, Panzerfaust, Piat and Bazooka rounds) is .5 x Penetration value for each round (Example: APCR:10 would be 5 points per round). This is paid for prior to applying the Points Multiplier.   2. Any Vehicle with poor ammo can reduce its point value by 5%.         3. Side Skirts or Schurzen (German term), are available for Russian tanks, mid 1944, and German tanks, 1943.  The cost is 10 points for  Also if the skirts are removed then subtract 10 points.  The value of the side skirt armor versus HEAT rounds is 2*Side Armor Value +1. If the side armor of the vehicle is 3 then the vs. HEAT value will be 2*3+1=7. 4. Zimmerite for German Tanks only. Cost is 5 points. Tanks with Zimmerite negates the placement of Anti-Tank Magnetic Mines   5. German Night Vision Equipment for tanks costs 20 points and for infantry 10 points.     6. Any Vehicle using the Special Breakdown Rules can subtract 10 points from the vehicle BPV.

 

 

Looking at the stats comparison here is what is found:

 

Stat:

Speed:                    Same

Size:                       Same

2ndary Weapons:   Same

Gun Accuracy:       Crusader slightly more accurate by 1 

ROF:                      Crusader has ROF of 2 vs PzKpfw IVE of 1

HE Effectivity:        PzKpfw IVE wins as Crusader has none

AP Effectivity:        Crusader has a 6 AP where the PzKpfw IVE has a 5

HEAT:                    PzKpfw IVE wins as Crusader has none

APC/APHV:           Crusader wins but is not in the BPV

Smoke:                  Both have smoke

Armor:                    PzKpfw IVE wins with +2 advantage in Front (side and rear are negated)

 

In a one-on-one, excluding crew capability, the vehicles seem to be close. The ROF advantage can be a killer and on a slightly better to hit chance and the possibility of 2 hits to its opponents 1 hit has a better statistical chance to kill the PzKpfw IVE. We are taking Crusader with +1 chance to hit (vs. the PzKpfw IVE which notes the difference OM1 between the 2 vehicles) on 2 rolls and the possibility of 2 chances on the 0 chart (10 or less to kill) versus the PzKpfw 4E which has slightly less probability to hit and 1 to kill roll on the 1 chart (11 or less to kill). This is what elevates the Crusader to a BPV close to the PzKpfw IVE. Also remember HEAT was in limited supply so it cannot account for every chance to kill. Overall rating everything to each other I think that the BPVs are pretty good and take into account he whole vehicle.

 

Hope this clarifies things a bit. :)


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#3 nexus6

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 01:35 AM

When both tanks use only AP rounds chance are equel. But i worry about this HEAT. I dont see situation when better is to use AP. As player i would use only HEAT. I have think about some limit of HEAT rounds. I found in book that early pn.IV had around 80 rounds including 10% smoke, 25% AP (including HEAT) and rest 65% HE - what makes 20 rounds AP (including HEAT). Reasonable number.  



#4 FeWolf

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 10:31 PM

Historical HE was most often carried the most, as the usually ran into more soft targets, the UK ran into this issue in Africa, there main tank fired AP only, with the Lee coming in this changed things for them, 70% he, 20%ap and 10% smoke according to Osprey books.
Alittle about the tank http://www.tanks-enc...VI_Crusader.php

Edited by FeWolf, 24 November 2018 - 10:47 PM.


#5 Bob Benge

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:45 PM

Thanks FeoWOlf for the info. Youa re totally correct! Nexus, as I mentioned in my post, yes, limiting HEAT rounds is essential for more realism as not many were carried.


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