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#41 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 27 July 2022 - 09:28 PM

Here is a preview of the tanks for this scenario.  This is summer 1943 so the Germans are operating primarily with Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs.  These are the later models with the Panzer III in this game being the L/M/N versions and the Panzer IV being primarily either the late G or the H model for this time frame.

Many of the German tanks have been modified to carry extra armored skirts or "schurzen" around their thinner sides and turret.  There have been several discussions on what the actual effects these thin armored plates really were.  It seems like there are several opinions out there but most seem to agree that they were most effective against smaller caliber rounds such as AT rifles with a benefit against HEAT rounds as well.  It appears they did not do a whole lot against the larger caliber round such as the 76mm fired by the T-34.

In this game, I have decided to change the schurzen stats a bit.  If you notice on the side armor statistics for the Panzer III L/M/N and Panzer IV G/H there are two sets of numbers.  The first number is the armor value without the schurzen while the second value is the total value with the schurzen.  I have decided to give the tanks with schurzen the following values instead.

57mm+ AP value gives only +1 additional armor effect.  An armor value of 3 for the side is now a 4.
Less than 57mm AP value gives +2 additional armor effect.  The side value would be 5.
AT rifles and HEAT rounds give the full additional armor effect.  In this game that would give the side armor a value of 7 which is indicated in the chart.

I'm doing a little guesswork here.  Schurzen were developed primarily to combat those pesky Russian AT rifles that when fired at the thin side armor of the Panzer III and IV would often penetrate at close range.  It was also found, at least according to some sources, that HEAT rounds would often prematurely detonate when hitting the skirts causing much less damage against the main armor as the spacing kept the round from contacting the main armor.

I went ahead and decided to give a slight benefit for AP rounds.  This armor was thin, to be sure, but I think would provide just a little bit of extra protection.  With the sideskirts on, that is the target that the gunner will see and will have a less precise aiming point.  If the round hits the outer layer at an angle there might also be a bit of wobbling that takes place as well.

I am not the expert here but I decided that this might be a reasonable way to handle this.

Feel free to discuss this further if you so choose.  I won't be offended but would like to know what the values would be in your opinion based on what you think they should be.

The Panzer III was on its way out while the Panzer IV production was being increased and the Panther was starting to arrive in but not enough to make a difference in the big picture. 

In this game, the Panzer III is a pretty mediocre tank.  It has average cross country and road speeds at 4/6 while the long 50mm gun, while better than the short 50mm gun, still has problems penetrating the frontal armor on a T-34 except at pretty close range.  I decided not to give the Panzer III L/M any APCR ammo for this game.  As the war went on, Tungsten cored APCR rounds became more rare as it was decided that this rare metal was better used to make certain components rather than ammo.  The Panzer III APCR round is rated at 13 which makes it pretty effective against a T-34 if it hits.  The Germans will have to get by without it.

The Panzer IIIN has a 75mm gun but it has a negative OM1 modifier since it lobbed shells at a higher trajectory to hit its target due to its low velocity.  The AP round for this gun is only a 5 value so even if it hits it has less chance to penetrate the frontal armor on a T-34 than the long 50mm gun on the L and M models.

For this reason, I have decided for the game that the 2 Panzer III Ns will have HEAT available which has a value of 8. 

The Panzer IVG/H is the best tank the Germans have for this game.  It has average speed of 4/6, a frontal armor of 8 vs 7 for the Panzer III, and the 75mm L48 gun is the best out there for either side.  With an OM1 of +1 and an AP value of 12, it is well suited to take on the T-34 on pretty equal terms.  It does suffer a slight disadvantage of have a DM of +1 due to the poorly sloped frontal armor/size.

The Russian T-34 is a very good all round tank in Mein Panzer as it was in the real world.  It has an excellent speed at 6 cross country and 8 on the road.  Because it has a cross country speed of 5 or higher it has the capability to do evasive movement which makes the tank much harder to hit.  The frontal armor of 9 is pretty respectable and can withstand the 50mm L60 of the Panzer IIIL/M in most cases.  In most engagements, with all the factors added in, this will mean the Germans will be rolling on the -3 part of the Kill Table which gives less than 1/6th chance of knocking the T-34 out.  The 76mm gun is adequate to handle any of the main German tanks it will be facing with an AP value of 9 vs frontal armor on the Panzer III of 7 and on the Panzer IV of 8.  This gives a reasonable but not overwhelming chance of knocking these tanks out if they are hit.

Feel free to check out the stats for yourself in the Data Book.  I actually think the two sides are reasonably well balanced with the Russians generally having the better tanks overall while the Germans with their veteran status will have the advantage of additional chances to hit with the bonus shot and have a bit more tactical flexibility in having greater command distance.  Luck can play a big role in this game as in any other so there is that factor as well.

 


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#42 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 01 August 2022 - 06:11 PM

Let the Game begin!  We are starting turn 1 of this game with the Germans vs the Russians in August 1943.

The first thing is to roll initiative. Each side rolls 1 20 sided die.  Low roll wins. I am using a black or dark blue die for the Germans and a red die for the Russians.

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The German rolls a 10 and the Russian rolls an 18.  The German player has the initiative for this turn.  He chooses to take the first impulse for the turn rather than letting the Russian go first.  Typically, you will want to go first but there may be certain situations in which you want the enemy to go first so you can react.

For this game there are 3 activation phases for each side per turn with the Germans able to move 1 unit per activation and the Russians 2.  This is because the Russians have 6 platoons while the Germans have 3 platoons.  Here is a copy of my somewhat crude but functional activation sheet for this game.

 

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I have divided the Russian command as if 2 Russian players were playing.  Each Russian player will activate only 1 unit per impulse.

The German chooses to activate his 2nd platoon of Panzer IIIs and head over to the hill on his left.  The German chooses to use both his activation and bonus move to move twice this turn.  The maximum cross country move for the Panzer III and Panzer IV is 4 inches also known as pips. 

Looking at the terrain effects chart, you will notice that the effect of climbing a hill deducts 1 pip from the forward movement.  This pip is subtracted for each activation whether standard activation or bonus move.

 

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Apparently, the lead tank is dragging a piece of white cotton filament behind it.  I fixed that after the picture was taken. 

The Company CO attaches himself to 2nd platoon for the first activation.  The CO can move with any of his elements as can the XO in the case of the Germans with 2 HQ tanks.  Like the platoons, they can only activate once per turn as well.

The German is now finished with his first activation.  As the Russians were not on the map yet there is no combat.


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#43 healey36

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Posted 02 August 2022 - 05:51 AM

 

Apparently, the lead tank is dragging a piece of white cotton filament behind it.  I fixed that after the picture was taken. 

 

I saw that and my first thought was, "Wow, he's tracking his movement with a piece of thread"  :lol:

 

I've sent the link for the tutorial to a few mates of mine, hoping to re-stir some interest in MP at the 1/285-scale. Lots of interest...


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#44 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 02 August 2022 - 09:02 AM

Thanks very much, Healey!  I am trying to get more people into this game and hopefully this tutorial/AAR will inspire some to give Mein Panzer a try and not be intimidated by the rules.



#45 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 03 August 2022 - 09:30 AM

The rules in Mein Panzer revolve around Troop Quality or TQ.  This is one of the most important aspects of Mein Panzer.  Each country has their own TQ ratings in the Data book.  The Troop Quality rating or TQ is the base chance of success in most situations.

 

If you look at the Data Book, you will notice that the troop quality rating of each side can vary from Conscript up to Elite.  Each Nationality has these ratings but not all ratings are equal for each nation.  For example a German Regular rating gives a base TQ of 12 vs a Russian Regular rating that gives a base TQ of 10.  Based on the 20 sided die used in the game, the German will start with a 60% chance of success based on the TQ while the Russian will have a 50% base chance of success based on their TQ rating.

For this scenario, I have given the Germans a Veteran rating.  I have given the Russians a Regular rating.

What this means is that the Germans have a TQ rating of 12.  This is the same rating German Regulars have but their are some additional benefits for Veterans vs Regulars. The Veteran status will allow the Germans to get an additional shot each turn when they fire plus increase their command range using the optional Command rules.

The Russians as Regulars have a TQ rating of 10.  With a Regular rating there is no additional benefits in terms of bonus shots or command distance.



 



#46 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 03 August 2022 - 10:11 AM

Now we go to the Russian first impulse of Turn 1.  The Russians are all coming from off the map board.  Each of the 2 Russian players can bring on 1 platoon of 3 tanks for this impulse. In addition, they can choose to bring the Company HQ tank on this impulse, which they do, or wait until either the 2nd or 3rd impulse to bring the HQ tank on.  

The Company Command tank can activate with any 1 of its subordinate 3 platoons but only once per turn.  In this case both HQ tanks come on with their first activated platoons.

The 1st Company opts to use the road and the greater road movement rate to come on the board.  If you look at the movement rate for the T-34 M1943, you will notice it has an excellent road movement rate of 8 inches or pips per activation.  In this case, the Russian player chooses to use his Standard Action and his Bonus Move to move 16 inches with the lead tank in what is basically a double move for this turn.

The 2nd Company chooses to bring their first platoon plus the HQ tank using the relatively flat terrain on the Russian right to move at the cross country rate of 6 inches per activation.  The tanks, using their Standard Activation and Bonus Move to move up to 12 inches onto the map of the 1st Russian impulse of Turn 1.

 

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These pictures show the Russians after the first impulse of Turn 1.  Remember, in order to get the road movement rate, a vehicle must spend its entire activation on the road.  In this case, the Russian 1st Company uses both the Standard Activation and Bonus Move to use the road movement rate.

Both HQ tanks decide to stay a bit behind the lead elements so that they will not be targeted by the Germans but still provide command and control for the company.


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#47 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 04 August 2022 - 06:31 PM

We are still on Turn 1.  Each player has now done 1 activation, the Germans moving a platoon of Panzer IIIs plus the Company CO using their activation and bonus move to move the unit twice.  To clarify, not all vehicles in the platoon had to do this.  Some could use the bonus move to move and use their activation to do something else but speed is of the essence here so everyone in the group moves.

The Russians in their impulse chose to move all their vehicles the maximum distance as well. 

Now, the second German impulse commences.  This time the German player chooses his Panzer IV platoon to activate.

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The lead tank crosses the bridge using its bonus move to do so.  The rest follow.

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Another view of this action.  The lead tank sees the Russian column barreling down the road to his front.

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The Panzer IV decides to take a shot at the lead T-34. As you can see, the range is just over 18 inches to the target.  In scale terms this would be approximately 50 yards per inch at the 6mm scale so the scale distance would be just over 900 yards.

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Here is a closeup of the range.  Remember, when measuring the measurement goes from the front of the firing vehicle to the edge of the target vehicle.  In the case of firing from or to the flank or rear, just use the appropriate edge for the firing vehicle and the target.  In this case it is from front to front.

In Mein Panzer, there are no turret facing rules.  It is assumed that turreted vehicles have a 360 degree traverse for their turrets.


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#48 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 04 August 2022 - 09:52 PM

"View to a Kill".  Here is how this engagement went down with the Panzer IV vs. the T-34. 

 

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Here is a picture of my stat sheet for the Panzer IVG/H.  Since the Panzer IV moved  this turn, we will be using its OM2 rating for this shot.

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Here is a picture of the German Troop Quality Table I made out.  In this game the Germans are rated as Veteran so have a TQ of 12.

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Here is a picture of the Direct Fire Table showing the various modifiers that might be in effect.

By the numbers, here we go.

1. German TQ is 12.  This is the base number for the die roll on a 20 sided die.  If no other modifiers are present this would be a 60% chance of success.
2. Offensive Modifier.  Since the German moved this turn, the OM2 modifier is used.  For the Panzer IVG/H it is -3.
3. Range.  The Range Modifier is 0.  The target tank is at about 18 inches which puts it on the 24" table so no modifier to the roll.
4. Condition of Target Stand.  The T-34 gets a -1 benefit for moving.  It has a Defensive Modifier of 0 so no modifications for that.
5. Terrain Effects.  No terrain effects are noted.  This is a basic simple engagement.

Again.

1. 12 TQ

2.  -3 OM2
3.   0 Range
4.  -1 Target Moving
5.   0 Terrain Effects

 Doing the math, you can see that the number needed to hit the T-34 is 8.  This gives the German about a 2/5ths chance to hit.

The German rolls.

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A 3 is rolled.  This number is less than or equal to 8 so a hit is scored.

We now go to the Kill Table to see what happened to the targeted T-34.

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The frontal armor on the T-34 is rated at 9.  This is pretty good overall.

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The Kill Table for vehicles showing the different possible results.

 

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Here is a closeup of the 3 row of the Kill Table.

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Here is a closeup of the AP Modifiers Table.  Before rolling on the Kill Table you will need to consult this table to see if there are any additions or subtractions from the die roll.  In this case there are no modifications as the German has high quality ammo and the 75mm L48 gun is larger than 57mm.

To determine which row of Kill Table to use, take the firing tanks AP value and compare with the defending vehicles armor rating depending on which aspect is being hit whether front, side, rear, or in more rare instances top.  Don't forget to consult the AP Modifiers To Kill Table to see if any of those apply.

In this example, the Panzer IVG/H has an AP value of 12.  The T-34 has a Frontal Armor Value (F) of 9.  The German Player consult the AP Modifiers and sees that at 24" range there are none in this case.

Based on the AP of 12 vs the Frontal Armor of 9 we will be on the 3 row of The Kill Table. 

The die is rolled.

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The result is an 8.  Looking at the 3 row we see that the result is 1 hit to the T-34.  Since the T-34 only has a damage rating of 1 it is knocked out.

The Panzer IV only has a Rate of Fire (ROF) of 1.  If it was had a Troop Quality Rating of Regular or less it would be done for the turn.  Since the Germans are rated as Veteran in this game, they are able to take a bonus shot.

On the bonus shot, you add all previous modifiers and then halve the result or make it -3 whichever is worse.

In this case, the Panzer IV can only fire at the same target to claim the bonus shot.  The reason is that you lose one Rate of Fire for changing targets.  The Panzer IV will try to hit the T-34 again to see if it can score another hit and get a "brew up" which is the tank basically blowing up.

The original shot required an 8  or less to hit.  The second bonus shot is at the same target so the German adds +2 to his hit chance before halving.  The normal chance would now be 10. 

The German needs a 5 to hit this time.

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The result is a 7 which is a Miss.

 


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#49 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 04 August 2022 - 09:57 PM

Here is the result of the engagement.  The lead T-34 of 1st Company is knocked out.  The Germans score the first Kill of the game.  Schnapps for everybody!

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A closeup of the knocked out T-34.  I used a piece of white cotton to indicate the knocked out status.


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#50 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 05:37 PM

So, we now have the first kill of the game.  This one went to the Germans and illustrates the basics of the vehicle engagement system in Mein Panzer.  In this particular engagement, the target tank did not have the benefit of any terrain but did have the benefit of moving which gives a -1 to the base number to hit.

Remember that any + added to your basic TQ increases your odds while any - will decrease the odds of getting a hit.

Also remember that if firing at the same target twice or more in a row, with no movement from either the firing vehicle or the target vehicle, you get another +2.  I call this the Ranging Effect as the TC and gunner adjust the gun's aim after the first shot.

In this case, the Panzer IV was able to add +2 to the bonus shot before either halving or subtracting 3 from the total number. 

If you are a Veteran or Elite unit, don't forget to take your bonus shots.  A Veteran Panzer III in this game gets a standard Rate of Fire(ROF) of 2 with an additional bonus shot for a total of 3 chances to inflict damage on the T-34.



#51 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 09 August 2022 - 05:56 PM

Here are a couple more pictures from the end of Turn 1.  There was really no more firing on either side as both sides opted to use their remaining activations to move twice using the Standard Activation and the Bonus Move.

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Both sides are trying to get to the 2 hills on either side of the road. 

When moving, don't forget to take the terrain effects into account.  The Russian 2nd Company on the right was able to move up to 12 inches Cross Country on level ground while the lead platoon of 1st Company was able to travel a full 16 inches along the road on level ground. 

The other 2 platoons of 1st Company were able to move a full 6 inches in their standard activation while those tanks climbing the hill could only move forward 5 inches on their second activation due to climbing the hill.

The German 1st platoon also started up the hill but able to go only 3 inches forward due to losing 1 movement "Pip" out of 4 available for climbing the hill during each activation.

The T-34s speed is a definite advantage and a wise Russian player will try to maximize this advantage.

 



#52 Kenny Noe

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 05:39 AM

Great work Peter!!  Looking forward to the rest of the game!

 

One point of clarification as I understand with regard to the AP Modifier to the Kill Table.  During WWII anything and everything was thrown into the war effort on all sides.  Quality control measures were adequate at best.  Stories of bent cartridges, faulty primers, and ammo subpar performance are hidden in various accounts, thus this table.

 

I don't use this table in post WWII battles.  IMHO - The quality of ammo increased as well as the technology / science behind various ammunition types. 

 

Bob would be the final arbitrator on this.

 

Thanks



#53 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 10 August 2022 - 09:18 AM

Hi Kenny and thank you very much! 

 

In regards to ammo qualtiy, I suppose if someone did not want to use the low quality ammo ratings for a particular side, in this case the Russians, then that could certainly be ignored and just give everyone high quality ammo.  Most of the negative effects of this is at ranges beyond 12 inches.  In this game, the Germans are hampered by having most of their tanks with 50mm guns and the negative effects of that ammo at ranges 12" or more.

As a side note, I considered giving each German Panzer IIIL/M one round of APCR each.  This gives the Germans a "Silver Bullet" that gives them some help against the T-34s with a 13 AP rating against the T-34s 9 Frontal Armor rating.  I opted not to do this for this game and I thought the game was pretty evenly balanced without doing that.

I will be adding more story and more pictures over the next few days and will try to illustrate the rules along the way.  My goal is to try to get more people into the game which I think is a fine set of rules.  I have heard from a few people now that have played the game a long time ago and are now thinking about trying it again and others that have the rules but haven't tried it yet.  I think some might be a bit intimidated by all the charts but everything seems to flow well once you get the hang of it.

I have done a lot of demo games in the past over at my FLGS, Imperial Outpost, here in the greater Phoenix area.  I did manage to build up a decent group of players for a while but most have either moved or gotten out of the hobby etc.


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#54 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 10:44 AM

Back to our Mein Panzer Tutorial. 

At the beginning of Turn 2, both sides roll a die to determine who has the initiative for this turn.  The Black die is for the Germans, The Red is for the Russians.

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This time the Russian Player has the initiative since he rolled a 3 and the German rolled a 12 with the low roll winning.

The Russians decide to go first this turn rather than give the first activation to the German.

The Russians activate a platoon from 2nd Company on the right.  He decides to engage the closest German Panzer III on the hill.

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The center Russian tank measures from its front to the front of the Panzer III.  The distance is 13 inches so no modifier for range on this one.

 

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Another view of the same shot.

The T-34 will not be moving so gets to use the OM1 modifier which is 0 for the T-34

 

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Here is another look at the Data Chart for the T-34 showing the ratings for OM1, OM2, and OM3.  OM1 gives a better chance to hit.

Next we look at any Terrain Modifiers or other Modifiers for the target.  In this case, the target gets the benefit of higher elevation -3 and also having moved last turn, and not yet activated in this turn, is considered to be moving so gets an additional -1.  There are no other modifiers as the Panzer III DM(Defensive Modifier) is 0.  A Panzer IV has a DM of +1 which is a bit of a detriment to the target vehicle.

Here we go, by the numbers.    Russian Troop Quality = 10
                                                                            OM1 =  0
                                                                    Range 13 =  0
                                          Target at Higher Elevation =  -3
                                                          Target is moving = -1

 

                                 The number or less needed to hit = 6

The Russian rolls!

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A roll of 10 is a miss as a 6 or less was needed.  The first Russian tank has completed its activation as the Rate of Fire is only 1 and having committed to not moving to get the OM1 benefit, it cannot use its bonus move.

The second tank in the platoon on the right also decides to engage the same Panzer III.  All the modifiers are identical so the number needed is still a 6 or less.

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Here is the measurement from the right tank in the platoon.

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Although a bit blurry in this picture, a 10 was rolled and another miss.  The 2nd tank is now done for the turn.

The Russian decides to give it one more go.  The tank on the left also engages the Panzer III.  It also does not move so the modifiers are identical.

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The range is closer to 14 inches but still in the greater than 12 to 24 inch range.

 

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A 3 hits!

 

Next time - The Kill Table to see what happened.  Stay tuned!


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#55 healey36

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 07:59 AM

Okay, having read through this, I'm already noting a few things I've been messing up. Thanks again for taking the time to provide this write-up.



#56 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 01:49 PM

No problem Healey.  I'm sure I messed up a few things when I first started playing these rules. They are pretty straight forward but there are things to keep in mind while playing. 



#57 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 02:13 PM

In our last update to the Mein Panzer Tutorial, a Russian T-34 scored a hit on the Panzer III on top of the hill.

Now we go to the Kill Table to determine possible damage to the target vehicle.  Be sure to add up all the factors before rolling for the result. 

Here it is again, by the numbers.

T-34 AP = 9
Pz III Frontal Armor = 7
Low Quality Ammo at 24" = -1

Final Differential = 1  The roll will be made on this table.

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Here us a closeup of the AFV Kill Table

Since the T-34 has a main gun that is 57mm or larger, there were no effects for that.  The Panzer IIIL and M with the 50mm gun need to consult this table.

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Here is a closeup of the AP Modifiers Table.

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Here is a closeup showing Rate of Fire and Critical Hit procedures.

The Russian player rolls the die!

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A 17 results in No Effect or sometimes called a Bounce.  The shot has hit but either has bounced off or hit a non critical part of the tank.

This is a very lucky Panzer III indeed!

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#58 Kenny Noe

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 02:25 PM

Small trick when reading the Kill Table....

 

Hits on the "0" row  = dice roll 1-10 confirms one point of damage (usually a kill)

Hits on the "1" row  = dice roll 1-11 confirms one point of damage (usually a kill)

Hits on the "2" row  = dice roll 1-12 confirms one point of damage (usually a kill)

...

...

Hits on the "10" row  = dice roll 1-20 confirms one point of damage (usually a kill)

 

...see the progression.   It becomes second nature to determine the dice number needed to knock out the enemy.

 

 

 

"Most" assets in MP only take one point of damage before they are killed.  Few take more than one....  (the JSIII reinforcements are coming, yes comrade?!?)

 

Good stuff....



#59 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 02:56 PM

Thanks for that tip, Kenny!  That is a very excellent point and hopefully will be of benefit to those new to the game and maybe a few of us old hands as well.

I also noticed that the ability to get 2 hits does not start until the 1 line of the Kill Table and the chances increase by  1 with each higher level.


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#60 Peter M. Skaar

Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 11:17 AM

On Turn 2, the Russian 1st Company on the left in its first impulse decides to activate the 2 surviving tanks of 1st Platoon plus the CO to get off the road and swing over to join the rest of the company.  Remember, the Company HQ tank(s) can activate with any one platoon during the game turn but only once per game turn.  In this case, I determined that the CO needed to get to a "safer" location along with the 2 surviving tanks of 1st Platoon.

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The Command Range of the Russian HQ tank in this game is 12 inches.  That is the distance that each of the 3 platoons needs to be in relation to the HQ tank to be in command for that turn.  Not all tanks in a platoon need to be in command distance of the HQ tank but at least 1 of them does.

The command range between the tanks in each platoon is up to 2 inches for the Russians in this game.  If any tank in the platoon is outside that range at the end of the turn, it will be out of command for the next turn and cannot use its bonus move but can otherwise activate normally.  It will remain out of command until it gets back into the 2 inch command range for the platoon.

In this game, since the Germans are Veteran, I opted to use the optional Command Range for Veteran units.  Veteran units have a Company Command Range of 18 inches with a Platoon distance of 3 inches vs the 2 inch Platoon Distance for Regular units.






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