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Reassessing the Dutch


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#1 W. Clark

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Posted 15 September 2021 - 05:50 PM

Things have changed for the Dutch since I last took up pen (if you will) describing their chances. A bit of a recap is probably in order here.

 

The Dutch started out with their historical OOB of (very) light cruisers and copies of the British Ambuscade destroyers. They then had two capital ship what if options, a rebuilt Tiger and the Project 1047 Scharnhorst knockoffs battle cruisers or a combo thereof.

 

Since then at least two further capital ship options have been added. The Mackensen class battle cruisers armed (or rearmed) with the British 13.5" and the proposed (but never built) improved Deutschland class pocket battleships.

 

I want to give kudos here to Jim O'Neil for coming up with both of these options and Dave Franklin for having the flexibility to allow them their place. A disclaimer here. This is my opinion and does not necessarily reflect anyone else's POV on these matters.

 

My past advice on the Koninklijke Marine Far East Fleet (or Squadron as you will) without a capital ship option was to transfer on GT2 to Surabaya and combine with the Americans and that stands as I see it.

 

But, with a capital ship option the Dutch become a force able to stand on its own. All of the Dutch capital ship options are excellent cruiser killers. But they also generate Japanese capital ship OOB responses and the Dutch capital ships  vary in their ability to deal with Japanese capital ships.

 

A lot of what your operational chances are affected quite a bit by whether the British have also taken a capital ship option. I say that because when there are multiple Allied sweeps in contact in the same tier and area the Allies get to choose (by rule) which one engages first. This would allow the PoW and Repulse to try and eliminate the Fusos and then have the Dutch capital ships come in behind to to clean up. That combination IMHO represents the Allies best chance to win in the WAF outright. Of course Japanese LBA will have something to say about that.

 

If you choose to leave the Brits to handle the WAF on their own then transferring the Dutch  to Surabaya on GT2 is still a good idea. This will allow you to use the American CD on GT3 to sortie and it will allow you to sortie in the Eastern Axis. There you can use the Allied who goes first option to send the Dutch in to try and clear out the Kongos. That will allow the ANZACs to come in behind and clean up there. Again, there is a good chance that Japanese LBA will have some say in this.

 

None of the Dutch capital ship options want to take on the Fuso class first. If PoW is present let her try and at least beat the Fuso class down a bit. Your capital ships shoot better but the Fuso classes' BB armor and 6 D12s each is hard to get past with BC/CA armor.

 

Your Dutch capital ships are looking to take on the Japanese heavy cruisers and make as many as possible go away (with drawn for repair works here). Remember, the Japanese bats go away when your bats do, but their cruiser remain.

 

 

 

 



#2 henryc

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 08:49 PM

Hello, I haven't seen the the proposed improved Deutschland class pocket battleships. Are there ship sheets for these?



#3 W. Clark

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Posted 18 September 2021 - 06:23 PM

I'll try and get Jim O'Neil to post them on the forum here.

 

They are the improved Deutschland class (that was designed but not built) and their data is as follows:

 

MB 2x 3 turrets of 11" CA armor

SB 4x 5.9" in single mounts (per broadside)

TB 12x 3.5" in 6 double mounts (2 CL mounts superimposed over MB, rest to p & s)

TT 2x quad AWT mounts p & s on quarter deck

Belt Armor CA

AA Factors 3(3)

A/C 1 FP w/catapult CL amidships

Hull 8 boxes

Speed 30 knots

Radar AW only

Named after the Dutch cities of Haarlem, Delft and Maastricht



#4 henryc

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Posted 18 September 2021 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, 



#5 W. Clark

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Posted 19 September 2021 - 12:31 AM

Its my position that any Dutch negotiations with the Germans have to occur before Hitler takes power to have any good faith on the German side. Hitler was on record both in writing and public speech opining that he despised the Dutch for sitting out WWI and that if it was up to him it would never happen again. And when it was up to him, he made good on his threats. I can thus see the Mackensen class BC deal and the improved Deutschland class PBs because both can (at least the purchase of the plans) can happen before Hitler takes power. 

 

Project 1047 is a horse of a different color. Hitler is certainly in power during the late fall, early winter of 39/40 when the negotiations for the plans of the Scharnhorst Knockoffs begin. The negotiations continued into the spring of 40. No one is ever going to convince me that the Germans were unaware that they were at that very moment planning to Holland. The negotiations which petered out in early April are an obvious red herring to keep the Dutch complacent about their chances of being invaded. Hitler did not want to arm the Dutch. He intended from the first to conquer them. He would later give more evidence of his hatred when he ordered them deprived of food stocks in 43-44 in order to starve them to death. He meant what he said and proved it to my satisfaction.

 

Of course the Tiger option not requiring any German input at all is a reasonable possibility. I could go on about why IMHO none of these options are realistic, because they required the Dutch to spend money on the defense of the DEI. So, why in 1939 did the Dutch suddenly have a change of heart, lay down cruisers to replace the Java class and larger destroyers to augment the 8 they had already built in the 20s. Khalkhin Go is the answer. Once the Soviets beat the Japanese so soundly, the DEI was next up to satisfy the Japanese hunger for natural resources. The Dutch government suddenly realized that its Admirals had been right to fear Japan since at least 1908. The Dutch finally recognized that the Navy's concern was valid, but too late.



#6 Dave Franklin

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Posted 19 September 2021 - 07:49 AM

Not sure Jim O'Neil monitors the forum.  He sent me an Excel file, but my experience is the forum prevents .xls/.xlsx from being posted.  So here's what he sent me, converted to .pdf.

 

Dave

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