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Why do German Ships in the deluxe logs lack radar?


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#1 mhl67

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 04:16 AM

Pretty much what the title says; why is that that German ships in the deluxe logs lack radar whereas their counterparts in the regular logs usually have it? The Bismarck for example I believe had radar and it is even listed as such in the radar supplement on here; but in the deluxe logs the Tirpitz doesn't have radar until 1944. Was this because the radar was of poor quality or the crew was unused to using it effectively, or was it a simple error? 

 

 

Also, I believe the Bismarck had a radar detector which is why they mistakenly thought they were still being shadowed by British cruisers after they had managed to evade them, since they didn't realize the radar signals they detected were too far off to return to the cruisers.



#2 healey36

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 09:09 AM

Practical German naval radar applications were very late in deployment, primarily as senior staff within the service held the notion early on that radar transmissions could allow an enemy to obtain a positional "fix", similar to the direction-finding capabilities that were being used on a standard radio transmission. There was an overwhelming paranoia in the German Navy senior staff regarding radio transmission in any form. Much like the IJN, the Germans instead placed great faith in their optical technology. This lead to a number of disastrous encounters with the Royal Navy which had developed both highly capable search radars, but also radar-directed fire control. While there were primitive and frequently unreliable sets deployed on German ships by 1941, if memory serves, I don't recall the Kriegsmarine actively promoting the use of radar until late-1944 or early-1945 which, of course, was far too late. 

 

This was not the case for the Luftwaffe and other service branches.



#3 mhl67

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 05:54 AM

Practical German naval radar applications were very late in deployment, primarily as senior staff within the service held the notion early on that radar transmissions could allow an enemy to obtain a positional "fix", similar to the direction-finding capabilities that were being used on a standard radio transmission. There was an overwhelming paranoia in the German Navy senior staff regarding radio transmission in any form. Much like the IJN, the Germans instead placed great faith in their optical technology. This lead to a number of disastrous encounters with the Royal Navy which had developed both highly capable search radars, but also radar-directed fire control. While there were primitive and frequently unreliable sets deployed on German ships by 1941, if memory serves, I don't recall the Kriegsmarine actively promoting the use of radar until late-1944 or early-1945 which, of course, was far too late. 

 

This was not the case for the Luftwaffe and other service branches.

 

Is this the actual rationale though? Also if this is the case, why isn't it universally applied - for some reason it looks like radar only really is inconsistent with the German Battleships; the pocket battleships and Hipper class all have radar from the start.



#4 healey36

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 06:07 AM

It's my guess; can't speak specifically for ODGW's rationale.

 

My understanding is that most KM capital ships had radar in some form, even from the earliest days, but the capability of the equipment, the competency of the operators, and the doctrine surrounding its use was questionable. Then again, some sources report that Graf Spee, one of the first German ships to be so equipped, had some success with its Seetakt set during its 1939 cruise.



#5 W. Clark

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 10:04 AM

The Graf Spee in 1939 had and early form of SW and FC radar that I believe (going on memory here) was called Seetakt. The range of the =SW was 16,000 yards and the FC was 8,000 yards. Both were very susceptible to shock damage (ie its own guns going off broke it often, so any MB firing dice result in 9; it is broken). The Germans apparently decided to put their efforts into passive radar detection systems rather than improving their radar and seriously slowed its development because of that decision. I see no problem when your research into an early war scenario with giving the appropriate KM ships = radar. - Radar is another matter and I'm not sure when German SW or FC reached that level (SW 30,000 yards range & 16,000 yards for FC) and I don't believe that the Germans ever got to + radar (SW or FC).

 

WMC


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#6 mhl67

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 05:29 AM

The Graf Spee in 1939 had and early form of SW and FC radar that I believe (going on memory here) was called Seetakt. The range of the =SW was 16,000 yards and the FC was 8,000 yards. Both were very susceptible to shock damage (ie its own guns going off broke it often, so any MB firing dice result in 9; it is broken). The Germans apparently decided to put their efforts into passive radar detection systems rather than improving their radar and seriously slowed its development because of that decision. I see no problem when your research into an early war scenario with giving the appropriate KM ships = radar. - Radar is another matter and I'm not sure when German SW or FC reached that level (SW 30,000 yards range & 16,000 yards for FC) and I don't believe that the Germans ever got to + radar (SW or FC).

 

WMC

 

Here's the problem: the GQ3 radar addenda posted here are helpfully labeled with what the radar is supposed to indicate. And Graf Spee has the same radar as the Battleships. Also the errata radar log was even compiled by the same guy who did the deluxe logs. So unless someone official shows up to explain, I'm going to assume the inconsistency in regards to German Battleship radar on the deluxe logs is some kind of error because it rather inexplicably contradicts their own logs.



#7 Kenny Noe

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 08:31 AM

All,

 

I've asked Lonnie to chime in on this.



#8 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 17 March 2023 - 08:02 PM

G' Day all,

 

Back in town. The subject of German naval radar in WWII is a thorny one with a fair amount of disagreement between sources on which types and when installed on various ships.  Probably because radar was not a major contributor to German naval tactics.  In the early days of WWII, the Kriegsmarine fielded some early type radars that were as good as anyone else's - as you would expect from the always technologically savvy  Germans.   However, as Healy36 and others have noted, my research concurs that Kriegsmarine leadership became quite concerned/obsessed that transmitting radars could be easily detected and located.  While it might seem bizarre today, German commanders were encouraged to keep their radars off to remain "hidden." This resulted in a number of painful surprises in the battles in the Arctic and elsewhere.  Further, it led the Kriegsmarine to focus on radar detectors instead and not prioritize  further development of naval search and fire control radars. Instead, the Germans put their energies into developing a series of radar detectors for naval use. The end result is German naval radars lagged behind evolving Allied radars in capability and reliability and, combined with reluctance to use operationally, meant that they didn't have a major impact in combat or even get outfitted on smaller ships until surprisingly late.  My sense is that's why there is not a lot of ink spilled about German naval radars in sources publicly available.  Books and articles written about various classes usually provide some data about radar outfits, but it is usually brief - and often conflicts with other sources.  That is particularly an issue for DDs and smaller warships.

 

The difference between the radar listings in the standard Ship Logs and the Deluxe Ship Cards results from different approaches used to develop them.  I prepared the standard Kriegsmarine Ship Logs for use throughout the war years 1939 - 1945.  When a ship in a scenario doesn't yet have radar or it is not operational, the Log is easily adjusted by simply drawing a line through the notations on it.  Or, add a notation if needed for a late war scenario.  The Deluxe Ship Cards, on the other hand, were developed to provide multiple Cards for many ships to reflect changes at different points in time. These are indicated by the small text line in the light yellow margin immediately beneath the Card.  For an engagement, just select the Card for the time period being simulated.  A more "Deluxe" approach to reflect differences in armament, AA and radar for a given ship at point in time.  Thus, a given Deluxe Ship Card may differ from the standard Ship Log.

 

In both cases, you are left with the potential for disagreements between sources.  We used the best sources available back when we prepared the ship data.  More sources have been published since then, which has added to the issue.  Until someone produces a definitive work on German naval radars, you can use the capabilities we found or adjust them for a given scenario if you find a new source you prefer. 

 

Cheers,

 

LONNIE   


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#9 mhl67

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 10:54 AM

Thanks for the response, I'm glad to hear that this was as designed rather than being a mistake.




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