15 replies to this topic

[Kenny Noe]

All,

 

The Overwatch (Opportunity Fire) rules.   Looking for outside opinions

 

Chapter 7 Direct Fire p 7.1

Section Overwatch p7.4

Bullet List p7.4 - 7.5

 

Bullet number 3

Weapons have their ROF reduced by - 1 when taking shots of opportunity.  Bonus Shots due to Troop  Quality may still be taken from Overwatch.

 

Read the entire section to better understand the entire OW concept as played in MPC.

 

 

Situation 1:

Unit (platoon) one has a TQ regular status and no bonus ROF.  The units weapon system has a ROF of 2.  So the unit weapon systems has a ROF of 2.

Situation 2:

Unit (platoon) two has a TQ veteran status and a bonus +1 ROF.  The units weapon system has a ROF of 2.  So the unit weapon systems have a combined ROF of 3.

 

 

Now in situation 1 and 2 the units (platoon) are on overwatch.  Unit one gets only one shot while unit two gets two shots.  Now for my question and your opinions.  <grin>

 

If OW negates a weapon systems extra ROF why allow the TQ ROF?   As MP is a Troop Quality based game should the veteran TQ bonus ROF be allowed in Overwatch?

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Thanks to all replies

[Peter M. Skaar]

Hi Kenny

I would say yes.  It is one more benefit for being Veteran vs Regular in this case.  If the Veteran unit hits and kills on the first shot, then the second shot is really not needed.  If the first shot is a miss or no effect, then the Veteran gets one more chance to change it.

Generally, TQ is the same for Regular and Veteran with differences in TQ ratings being due to nationality.  Giving the Veteran that extra shot gives them that veteran ability.

[Kenny Noe]

Thanks Peter, appreciate the input.

 

Anyone else?

[Peter M. Skaar]

Thanks, Kenny.  Hopefully we will have some more people chime in here.

[healey36]

I agree with Peter's input. Frankly, there doesn't seem to be that many "differentiators" for veteran vs. regular TQ in the rule set, but this would be a good one. Efficient gun-handling would seem to be something developed over time, so making the second shot veteran-exclusive makes sense to me.

[Kenny Noe]

Paul,

 

At the risk of hi-jacking my own thread, I respectfully disagree re: veteran "differentiators".  This is not a knock at your comment.  I appreciate the input.  We all agree that a big reason we love and play MPC rules is the fact that it's based on "How good are your Troops?"  TQ as a foundation to the game has so much more impact here than other rules sets.

 

There is one (1) primary set of differentiators and a few other through out the rules.  The primary set apply to all come from the Troop Quality Table.  This table list 9 differentiators (one being troop type and the others values that impact 8 values of troops fielded in the game).

1. Troop Type
2. Troop Quality
3. Moral Value
4. Recovery Value
5. ROF Modifier
6. Firepower (FP) Modifier
7. Hand-to-Hand (HTH) Modifier
8. Command Distance
9. Points multiplier

 

Troop Type list 5 different levels of training / experience that troops can have (Untrained, Green, Regular, Veteran, and Elite).  Three of these are modifiers that are to be applied to attack actions.  Other modifiers not on the TQ Table but found through out the rules apply to specific Troop Types.

 

Focusing on the Veteran troop type in this thread, I was able to quickly find three more differentiators in the rules.

 

Veteran troops have a better (higher roll percentage)

1. spotting
2. setting/triggering satchel charges
3. avoiding demolition accidents
4. completing engineering general tasks faster

 

Just highlighting the versatility Troop Quality and it's impact through out the rules

[Kenny Noe]

All,

 

My interest in the subject of this thread was Rate Of Fire (ROF) as applied to the Overwatch rules.  Specifically, why OW limits ROF.

 

ROF for a weapon system is calculated based on the OSINT report of the systems actual rate of fire per min and one more "real world" item.  The break point between ROF 1 and ROF 2 is 8.  Systems that fire 1-7 rounds per min have a MP ROF of 1 and those with 8-(something I can't recall) has a ROF of 2.  MPC ROF only goes up to ROF 5.  If you are curious about the break points, PM me and I'll share the table.

 

The other "real world' item is an autoloader.  If a weapon system has an autoloader and a ROF 1-7 rounds per min, then MPC gives that system a ROF of 2.   There were long discussions during playtesting in the 1990s (damn I'm old) related to the speed of human vs. tank carousel loading.  The final ruling allowing an extra ROF for these systems was added to the rules.  I REALLY DON'T want to rehash this.  It's in the rules and has worked fine.

 

 

This thread focuses on the OW rule limiting OW fire to only one round and should the OW unit have a TQ bonus ROF then that round as well.   I think the limitation makes sense given a human component.

 

I am looking for other perspectives to broaden the understanding and generate discussion on the subject.   Looking forward to more.

[Don Carter]

If it is in the rules, then that is  the way it should be played. I think we fell into the ow is one shot was to keep the game going. When we run at a convention, we are using fast and dirty  trying to keep players interested. That being said, if rof has a bonus then we need to start using those rules.

[Peter M. Skaar]

It is in the rules for Overwatch.  On page 7.5 (My 2006 edition) under Overwatch, the 3rd bullet states that the ROF is reduced by -1 when taking shots of opportunity.  Bonus shots due to troop quality may still be taken from Overwatch.

Somewhere, I can't specifically recall, I remember reading that bonus shots are not necessarily more shots per se but that it reflects Veteran and Elite crew efficiency.  The penalty for bonus shots due to veteran status is still 1/2 of the normal die roll required to hit or -3 whichever is worse.

That is how I interpret this and how I play it on the fairly rare occasions when it happens.

As an aside, in our last game on December 7th, I gave the Germans Veteran status so they got their bonus shots.  None of the players did happen to go into overwatch so this particular rule under discussion was not in play.

[Begemot_]

What is the rationale for penalizing the Overwatch rate of fire? 

[Bob Benge]

If I remember correctly, OW was penialized because the OW unit had to scan for targets over the OW arc which can take time considering terrain and the unknowmns of where a target would show up. This would cause the OW unit to have to locate and setup the shot. BLUF: the OW unit had to spot the moving non-firing target out of some type of terrain, setup the shot and then shoot. It was, in my opinion, correct that the process would take a bit of time that would impact the number of shots that the unit could take on the target. The rule was judged to be a playability representation.

 

To comment on the ROF table mentioned by Kenny, I can say having to use the table multiple table more times that you can probably imagine , that a line in the sand must be drawn somewhere and that those lines were calculated playability lines that we have lived with. The problem is that it is always hard to understand why there is a difference between the lines. Why is there a break between 7 and 8?!? My answer: "because"... LOL. Actually because you have to draw the line somewhere and that is where the numbers worked the best for the game. This was born out of the multitudes of playtesting.

 

As to the OW ROF fire question, Peter was spot on. Troop Quality bonus is independent of the OW since it solely represents the improved crew capability/efficiency to target and fire there gun system at a target.

 

My 2 cents.

[Kenny Noe]

Thanks Bob.

[Peter M. Skaar]

Thank you, Bob!

[Begemot_]

Bob,

 

Thank you for the explanation.

 

Begemot

[healey36]

Ken, good points all and I stand corrected. I guess I haven't played down through the set with enough variation in situations such that the TQ has borne a significant effect (or I just don't recall, my bad). Thanks very much for the clarification...I've made note of this in the back of my rulebook.

 

Paul R.

[Mark 1]

> ... should the veteran TQ bonus ROF be allowed in Overwatch?

 

I am on the side of allowing the TQ bonus ROF.

 

My readings of first hand accounts are chock full of examples of positioned units getting off multiple shots at targets that come into their view before those targets can manage any response to what is happening.  Two, three, sometimes more shots before the target can shoot back, flee, turn, take cover, whatever the response.  Read Crisp's Brazen Chariots for a case where he, as a highly experienced TC, suffered multiple hits by a German AT gun before he could even understand what was happening and instruct his driver to take an evasive action.

 

This is the essence of overwatch and opportunity fire in my experience. If you advance against an emplaced enemy, before you have taken any measures to ferret out where the defenses are and what their strength is, you can get disproportionately punished by an opposing force that you might have out-matched if you'd been more careful. That's all the more true if it is an experienced enemy. Good quality veterans on defense were/are a very dangerous foe.