53 replies to this topic

[Jim O'Neil]

I cannot find anything in Koop and Schmolke about torpedo reloads for German DDs.

[jwsleser]

Thank you Jim.

 

Is it an absence of any discussion of reloading at sea or a general point of any reference of carrying torpedo reloads at all?

 

Headley36 states that one source states that both reloads were carried and that destroyers reloaded at sea. 

 

v/r  Jeff

[Jim O'Neil]

No mention what so ever. And the various over head drawings don't seem to show anything either. I think someone mentioned Whitley's book on German DDs, let me look at that.

 

Whitley mentions the Type 41 plans for Z-48-51 which have four reloads in their plans, but were never laid down. The Hull numbers were then used for other ships.

[healey36]

FWIW...again:

 

“All German destroyers were designed to carry reload torpedoes, the number of which is usually given as eight. In fact, only four reloads were provided for, except in the Type 42 (none of which was completed). The reload torpedoes were stored in covered compartments alongside the tubes themselves, in the raised half-deck on which the tubes were mounted, where there was room for the stowage of only one torpedo to port and starboard of each bank. It is noticeable that the width of this half-deck was considerably greater in the Type 42C in order to allow the stowage of the extra four torpedoes. The weapons could be withdrawn for servicing using loading beams fitted to the break of the forecastle and the midships deck; they could also be placed on trollies which were provided for the purpose and ran on the mine rails (this is probably the reason why the port rails were carried up to the break of the forecastle whilst the starboard set terminated at the funnel). In action, reloading proved difficult under battle conditions and in any sort of sea, since the reload system was not purpose-designed as was that employed by the Japanese. There were a few occasions when destroyers did attempt reloading, such as the actions in the Bay of Biscay in 1943 and 1944, when both Z23 and Z32 managed partially to reload, but both ships were seriously hampered by the weather conditions. Z27, in her final action, attempted to reload her torpedoes but was unable to do so. Quite apart from the physical problems, the weight of four extra torpedoes, some twelve tonnes, cannot have improved the destroyers’ already suspect seakeeping properties.”

 

M. J. Whitley

Destroyer!: German Destroyers in World War II

Naval Institute Press - 1983  

[Jim O'Neil]

OK, I was just in Whitley and did not see that at all ... can you cite a page? His index and table of contents is of little help.

Looking at the overhead views in Koop and Schmolke I don't see them either. This is an important point and don't want to just blow it off.

 

BTW I have the second release of Whitley's book, in case that makes some difference.

[healey36]

Take a look at pages 81-82, Jim, in the 1983 Naval Institute Press edition.

[Jim O'Neil]

I have the 1991 edition and those pages have nothing about spare torpedoes. I read the first three pages (83-85) of Chapter 6 "North Sea Offensive" and saw nothing about torpedoes. I went back to Page 72 "Enhanced Capabilities" and found a statement to the effect that no torpedo tubes were removed to add AA guns, but nothing about reloads.

I have carefully looked at the overhead views in Koop & Schmolke GERMAN DESTROYERS of the various DDs and Z-30 and 31 have something just aft of the TT center line that might be a spare Torpedo  box for a single torpedo ... one on each side of each Torpedo mount. The is nothing mentioning spare torpedoes and each ship is list as have  two quad mounts for 8 torpedoes.  

Can you give me the title of the paragraphs you found this in? Then perhaps we will see the same thing.

[healey36]

All I can really tell ya Jim is that the short section re: torpedo reload capabilities is in Chapter 4 Armament, under the section "The Principal Weapon". I have quoted Whitley verbatim above. It's possible that a second edition edited out material, but that seems doubtful. My USNA contacts tell me the 1992 edition was just a reformat of the first edition to match the style of his cruiser and capital ships books. They also tell me that, FWIW, Whitley's book is considered the definitive account of KM destroyer design and operations leading up to and during WWII.

 

Paul R.

[Jim O'Neil]

Eureka! It's on page 68 in my edition, and it is as you state. Thanks for bearing with me. It does appear that reloading under fire was tried and accomplished at least once, But it was quite difficult.   I am not sure I'd allow it in most  situations , but if allowed, it would be allowed on 0ne try for a 1 on a D12. 

 

I am wondering why Koop & Schmolke do not mention it, as native speakers who certainly should have understood the German documents as well if not better than Mr. Whitley.  

[healey36]

Seems a reasonable approach, Jim, although I might raise the possibility slightly (maybe a 1-2 on a d12).

[Jim O'Neil]

Agree if the weather is Force 3 or less. a 1 if Force 4 or 5 and not possible if the weather is worse.

[Lonnie Gill]

G' Day all,

 

This has been an interesting discussion with some good questions and suggestions on torpedo reloads in a combat area.  As I wrote a number of years ago, no one person comes up with all the good ideas, so this is a good opportunity for us to work together to evolve the GQ3.3 rules for torpedo reloads - especially the optional 1.4.14 IJN tactical reloads section.  As you work through potential changes, this seems a good point for me to add in my two cents to clarify a few things and offer a few things to consider.

 

First, I am gratified that viewing GQ3.3 as an simulation using a mix of different time and movement aspects and various probabilities to provide the gamer with realistic situations to have to make tactical decisions in a reasonable amount of playing time is well understood.  As a captain or force OIC (Officer In Command), you don't fire every gun or perform other detailed actions. - your crew(s) do. But you are in command, responsible for applying and maneuvering your forces to best achieve your objectives and - just as important - react to how situations evolve and make the best of things as they deviate from the plan or don't go as expected.

 

OK, on to torpedo reloads.  Here are several aspects and clarifications to consider:

1. The rules are only applicable to reloading in the tactical battlefield, described as the tactical area, during a tactical combat situation.  When not in combat, vessels can take whatever time is required and maneuver as needed to move extra ordnance around in a relatively safe and stress free manner. As several of you have noted, few surface ships carried reloads as it was impractical to attempt to reload during a combat situation without some very specialized processes and equipment.

2. Three types of reload situations are covered:

a) Fixed tubes for submarines and a few older ships with fixed tubes using various forms of block and tackle and blunt manpower.  This is covered in 1.4.8 at the rate of  2 GTs (Game Turns) per tube. This should be 2 daytime GTs, although it doesn't explicitly say that. Mine to fix. Night time doesn't impose a lot of extra issues as it is done inside the hulls in lit compartments sheltered from weather and other distractions.  One could get into enormous complexity over this, but I would suggest that it would not add a lot of additional realism or variation as most navies employed fairly similar systems.

Slow Reloads for rotating torpedo mounts by some IJN ships and a few other surface ships at the rate of 4 GTs per tube, also covered in 1.4.8.  Again, this would be 4 daytime GTs (8 nocturnal GTS).  As noted in the earlier posts, the prewar USN Porter class DDs and Kriegsmarine DDs carried reload torpedoes.  These systems did not prove practical for tactical reloads and were discarded before WWII started to free up weight and deck space for AA armament and stability.  This leaves the IJN pre Hatsuharu class DDs such as the Fubuki, Akatsuki and Mutsuki class DDs.  Searching through various sources did not provide much data on how fast their reload systems worked beyond a general description of hauling torpedoes out of their lockers one by one via block and tackle onto a carriage or trolley that was then maneuvered on fixed rails in the deck to the location of the tubes, lining it up with a torpedo tube and then loading the torpedo in the tubes one by one via block and tackle. [footnote 9 in the Hans Lengerer article on the Hatsuharu class DDs] Doesn't sound like something that would happen quickly on a moving DD in combat, particularly at night.  That is further supported by the fact that the six Fubuki class DDs refitted with Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedoes late in the war (4Q 1943 - and 1944) only carried 3 reload torpedoes and don't appear to have been refitted with the heavy and deck space consuming high speed tactical reload system.  The Italian Da Barbiano class CLs were probably similar, but hopefully someone can check some of the newer sources to confirm.  Thus, these earlier IJN DDs did have a reload system (noted as shaded reload data on the Ship Logs), but it was not very practical in a combat situation and may or may not have actually been used in a battle.  Unless someone finds some specific data, it seems the duration per tube in the basic 1.4.8 rule remains a reasonable simulation for these slow reload systems. 

3.  Tactical Reloads then only apply to the Hatsuharu and later IJN DD classes and the 8" gun cruisers and some of the CLs (see the Ship Logs as appropriate). They shipped a very clever and practical engineering solution for tactical reloads that was simplified as a 6 GT reloading cycle in 1.4.8.  This is the situation that the optional rule 1.4.14 for IJN Variable Tactical Reloads attempted to address - and would well benefit from an upgrade.

 

Things to consider enhancing this optional rule to provide a better simulation:

A) The 1.4.14 rule refers to 3 minute NIGHT GTs rather than 6 minute DAY GTs as night actions were the primary occasions for employing the reload tactic. I should have specified Dark GTs, but didn't.  My bad.  So, the base 6 GT duration before rolling to complete reloading a TT mount would consume 18 minutes. Once we finalize on probabilities for durations, I will list them in a table stated in successive Dark (Day) GTs probabilities for clarity.  That will enable the gamer to easily use it for day or dark scenarios. That's a needed fix.

I would suggest the conditions/movement restrictions should be (1) not under fire (2) no more than one 2 point change of course per GT (3) Force 4 or milder weather conditions and 4) a speed of 20 kts or less.  Certainly not more than 25 kts.  I have a strong sense of how lively even a moderate sized ship rolls and pitches unexpectedly in "good" weather from spending four and a half months at sea during a circumnavigation voyage a number of years ago.  Shifting 3,000 to 5,000+lb torpedo loads is no easy or simple matter at sea on a moving ship.  Further, ships, DDs in particular, take on some different handling conditions once they start moving over 20 kts in a seaway.  Check out 200,000 Miles Aboard the Destroyer Cotton by C. Snelling Robinson page 133 for some illuminating comments.  BTW, this is good memoir on DD combat in the Pacific in 1943+. Well worth a read.

C) How long would a tactical reload normally take? As noted in several of the previous posts, there doesn't seem to be much conclusive data to go on.  Several have mentioned durations from post war interviews with Japanese sailors of only about three minutes or less in ideal conditions. Maybe tied up to a dock in daylight without the stress of a combat situation. Seems quite unlikely.  Strikes me that the Japanese sailors may have been having a little fun at the expense of their interrogators! That leaves durations of 20 - 30 minutes which seems to come primarily from Morison and analyses of several of the 1943 nocturnal battles in the upper Solomons where this tactic was employed. In a few cases, durations exceeded an hour.  Not so surprising as there are a lot of variables in performing tactical reloads in combat conditions.  Even the encyclopedic Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War by Lacroix and Wells provides lots of data on the tactical reload systems, including some nice drawings, but is a little circumspect on durations.  On page 248, they state, "In ideal conditions, the reload time was 3 - 5 min, but routinely the reloading took 20 - 30 min when there was no need to hurry."  May have been plenty of need to hurry in a battle, but that's offset by lots of stress, particularly in the dark.  My sense is that we should use the 20 - 30 minute cycle as the average base period for determining probabilities unless something more definitive is located in a source.  That fits pretty well with the proposed probabilities in the earlier posts once we correct for the Dark (Day) GTs. For those with a more fiendish disposition, we might consider making a die result of "12" be a malfunction preventing completion of reloading that mount. 

D) Finally, I hope some of you will take on the task of trying to find more definitive data on the pre-Hatsuharu slow reloading systems and spend some time doing a more thorough review of Lacroix and Wells to ensure that all the reload systems for the various IJN cruisers were pretty similar to the DD systems.  Not recommending separate destroyer vs cruiser durations unless that should prove absolutely necessary.  

 

Once we work through these issues, and do the play testing, we will have a better simulation for tactical torpedo reloads.  I can then package it with several other minor rule upgrades I've been working on with Jim and a few others for later this year.  This will be a free download available to all GQ 3.3 owners.   Working together, we can further enhance the system as new and better sources come out.

 

LONNIE

[Jim O'Neil]

Anatomy of a Ship BARTOLOMEO COLLEONI on page 12 says that there was a spare torpedo box on each side of the after superstructure.

The statement reads" Four torpedoes were stored in the launching tubes and two were stored in containers along side the after superstructure."

It also says "It took about 30 minutes to reload a torpedo tube after firing."

[Lonnie Gill]

Thanks Jim, 

 

I was about to post the same source, but you were Johnny on the spot on this one!  I have not been able to find any details or drawings about the Italian reload process in other sources, indicating the Italians did not have a high-speed reload process, or even if tactical reloading during combat was a planned tactic.  Further, there is no mention of any attempt to use it in the 1940 action off Cape Spada - the only time it might have been employed - in the Italian Naval history or other sources.  That may have been more the result of the Bartolomeo Colleoni's crew's loss of cohesion when damage reduced her to dead in the water.  Haven't found any mention of landing the spare torpedoes after the war started to save weight or improve stability, but reloads were not provided for the follow-on italian cruisers indicating that the Regia Marina did not conclude this was a viable tactic for further pursuit. 

 

Given that a non high-speed reload capacity did exist for the da Barbino class cruisers, the Slow Reload rule in Section 1.4.8 provides a way for those who would like to explore this tactic in a scenario.  So, one action item resolved in our review of potential enhancements for tactical torpedo reloads.

 

LONNIE