9 replies to this topic

[Dave Franklin]

A few of the different nationality's Torpedo CRTs leave me a little puzzled. The RN's and KM's are straight forward enough: the ranges for the Aerial torpedo, or Standard 21" torpedo at "high speed" setting, on the left of the table; the ranges for the Standard 21" torpedo at "long range" (lower speed) setting on the right. The IJN's is similar, with the 24" Long Lance ranges on the left, and the Aerial or 21" ranges on the right.The French: The left-most two columns on the table are for for 18" (or in this case 16") torpedoes, but the left hand ranges are for the Standard (21"). The right hand ranges are for the Aerial or 16" torpedo. So, the 16" torpedos have the same single range band as the Aerial torpedoes, but use the left two columns, while the Aerial torpdoes use the Standard columns, right? What if you're playing the optional Partial Torpedo Spreads rule, and only want to fire one 16" torpedo? Extrapolating, it would appear to only hit on a 1?Then there's the Italians: The table is similar to the French. The right hand ranges would indicate they are for the 21" at "long range". The left hand ranges are labled "Aerial or Standard". It would seem the left hand "Standard" label is incorrect, as the left hand ("high speed") ranges are less than the right hand ("low speed") long ranges. Plus there is no legend for the smaller torpedo (I think the Italian's were 17.7"). Should the left hand legend be "Aerial or 17.7" and the right hand legend simply be "Standard"?Finally the US: There are no columns or ranges for the Old 21". So they just use the US Stanard 21" range and spreads, but move left one column on the Mine and Torpedo Damage Table?After writing the above question on the US torpedoes, I did a search of the PDF, and found data for some of the older/smaller torpedoes on page 5-12, Assault and Small Craft (e.g. Old 21" Torpedo = 3,500 yds @ 35 knots and Aerial 21" torpedo = 6,000 yds @ 36 knots). The data on this page does not appear to match the Torpedo CRTs?

[Lonnie Gill]

Co_diver,Good questions. First, the "Standard" legend on the TORPEDO CRTs refers to the standard range setting, not a torpedo type. See Section 1.4.2 on page 1-5. Thus, this does not refer to a "standard 21" torpedo. The columns indicate the torpedo type with circled number headings for 21" torpedoes (and 24" for the Japanese) and reverse printed circled number headings for the smaller torpedoes (generally 18").French: The left two columns are for the 16" torpedo which uses the range band at the right of the table. The French aerial torpedo was also 16", so it also uses the right hand range band. That's noted in the bonus Design files available on the web site, but not made clear in the rules. I'll look at an update to the ALLIED AIRCRAFT CAPACITY table to note this distinction. Firing an optional single 16" torpedo would be extrapolated to hit on a "1 - 2", in the same manner as the single torpedo column on other navy CRTs.Italian: The left hand scale is correctly labled for standard range and aerial torpedoes. Unfortunately, there should only be one standard range band with the 4,400 yds replacing the 2,000 yds listed. This is a typo; thanks for the catch. We will fix this and post on the web so you can download the correction. My appologies for the confusion.US: The American torpedoes all use the 21" columns on the TORPEDO CRT. However, the old 21" used by PT boats throught July 1943 had a range of 3,500 yds @ 35 kts (one range band) as you correctly noted on the ASSAULT & SMALL CRAFT table on page 5-12. Use the ranges and speeds listed on the table in place of those listed on the TORPEDO CRT for these torpedoes as described in Section 1.14.5 on page 1-22. The 6,000 yd range listed as maximum range band on the left hand "Aerial or Standard" scale on the the USN TOPREDO CRT is consistant with the range listed for aerial 21" torpedoes on the table on page 5-12. The Mk13 aerial torpedo, however, moved at 36 Kts, resulting in a 3,600 yd first range band vs the 4,500 yd first range band listed for the Mk15 surface ship torpedo. Aerial torpedo movement is specifically addressed in Section 2.11.2 on page 2-12.The torpedo range bands on the national Torpedo CRTs are necessarily focused on the primary torpedo type used and majority surface ship use case to avoid leaving you with a VERY complex CRT. There were, of course, lots of other torpedoes which saw at least some service. If you desire more detail in this area, you can develop range bands for each type to use with the torpedo spread columns on the CRTs.

[William MacGillivray]

lonnie wrote:

Co_diver,Good questions. First, the "Standard" legend on the TORPEDO CRTs refers to the standard range setting, not a torpedo type. See Section 1.4.2 on page 1-5. Thus, this does not refer to a "standard 21" torpedo. The columns indicate the torpedo type with circled number headings for 21" torpedoes (and 24" for the Japanese) and reverse printed circled number headings for the smaller torpedoes (generally 18").

What then for those CRTs without the reverse printed circled number headings (eg RN & Japanese). Do these use the same coluns for both "large" and "small" torpedos?

[Lonnie Gill]

Yes, for the RN and IJN TORPEDO CRTs, use the column reflecting the number of torpedoes in the spread. I avoided listing both types of torpedo symbols at the top of the columns to avoid clutter. These CRTs also do have separate range scales for the RN 18" and IJN 21" torpedoes.

[Martin Jerred]

I'm still a little confused with regard to the RN TT chart.It seems to only list a Standard range (4100, 82500, 11000 yards) for 21" TT. There is no Long range (the righthand scale is for aerial and 18" TT).I undertsnad the 21" to be c40 knots out to 5000yds and 25 knots out to 13500 yardsI also note that the TT example on page 20 [pdf] shows a RN TT CRT with 4 range brackets with turn 1 split into 2000 and 4100 yard rows. I assume this is an old hangover from an earlier format?Could you take a look at the RN chart actually published and verify that the it is correct as it looks peculiar.cheersZippee:unsure:

[Paul Herkes]

Lonnie noted a misprint on the Italian torpedo table. With there be a consolidated FAQ or errata document? This would be valuable. I didn't see anything in the downloads section when I last checked, please let me know if I was just looking in the wrong location.

[Bob Benge]

There will be an errata/replacement PDF page completed as soon as Lonnie can get to it. I am not sure but he may be waiting to see if there are any other little gremlins sneaking about before he posts changes so that he can tackle these at one time. A FAQ page would not be a bad idea either, as a stop gap until the pages are redone. Hey CinC and/or Lonnie what do you think?

[Lonnie Gill]

Zip,The RN Torpedo CRT is as intended. I made a design decision early on to only include optional, long range torpedo settings for those navies - like the USN - which had very short "standard" settings. Most types of torpedoes have multiple settings which can lead to a great deal of complexity. In my research, I did not find much evidence that these long range/slow settings were used. I think that is because the navies had discovered that the probability of a hit declines geometrically [sorry for the bad pun] as the distance increases. In a simplistic way, you can see this in the Third Edition torpedo system as targets further away in the tactical area are harder to intercept. Since we use range attenution in the form of a reduced scale, the real decrease in probability is considerably greater. Thus, I viewed that torpedo runs greater than 10,000 yards were not likely to be used. The so called IJN Long Lance is a good case in point. While it had a maximum range of approximately 40,000 yards, depending on whose data you use, there appears to be almost no documented evidence of max range use. The only cases I am aware of are the torpedoing of the USS Strong in the Kula Gulf in 1943 and the torpedo launches in the battle of the Java Sea in 1942. Sources still differ on the results of the Java launches. I submit the only way long/ultra long range torpedo attacks might have been considered a practical tactic rather than a chance fluke would be against a long battleline ala' Jutland style. Even then, the probability would be low.Therefore, I limited the RN to the 11,000 41 knot setting and the IJN to the "short" range 45 knot setting. The "standard" range listed on each navy's CRT lists its normal tactical setting found in my research. Some of the "long range" settings listed in the data sources may be yet another case of manufacturers developing/responding to specs that looked good on paper, but serving professional naval officers regarded as unusable.Of course, you can set up your own optional range bands if you want to simulate more of the optional speed/range settings available for each navy's torpedoes in your engagements. Torpedo attacks is an area where it's easy to add a lot more optional detail if this is an interest.Finally, you are correct that the range bands shown on the example on page 1-6 represents an earlier version of the CRT. I confess this was part of streamlining the final version. Having two range bands for the first Game Turn was a potential source of confusion and didn't add a lot of value to the simulation. I do, however, win my bet that someone would catch it!

[Martin Jerred]

Hi Lonnie,Believe me the LAST thing I want to do is add complexity to the TT rules. :woohoo:In short what you are saying (if I understand correctly) is: 1) The three long ranges listed (KM, USN, RMI) are purely optional and probably represent non-operational / theoretical range extremes. 2) The standard ranges given without such an option (RN, MF) although long by comparison are already shorter than theoretical.3) That the optional (KM, USN, RMI) long ranges have been included to balance out the longer effective short ranges of the RN/MF in game terms.4) That the equivalent optional long ranges of the RN/MF have been discarded as very unlikely, along with the ultra long range IJN long lances.The possibility of adding in these long ranges then sounds like the sort of thing I’ll leave to specific scenario design parameters - not the everyday wargaming tabletop encounter (which I admit was anything but an everyday occurrence ;) ).I think we’ll stay with the standard range rules in that case but it is very useful to know what the thinking behind the process was.Again many thanks for taking the time to respond, it is appreciated – even if at times we sound like a pack of whining ingrates :) Cheers,Zippee

[Lonnie Gill]

Zip,Yes, I think you've captured my view rather well. The long range settings are used in the optional rule only. [See Section 1.4.10 on page 5-2.]I also like your comment about making optional torpedo speed/range settings scenario specific. The standard ranges are best for the majority of scenarios, but occasionally you may be simulating a specific engagement situation where long/ultra long range torpedo tactics would be something a navy might have tried.Thanks for your comments. I don't see "whining." Game design is a series of trade-offs of playability vs. detail, especially in the area of torpedoes. It makes sense to understand the path I chose to see if you agree or want to make a modification which better fits your interests. I think one of General Quarters' strengths is a sound basic design backbone that is resilient enough for you to customize it with an occasional mod to add more detail or "chrome."It's also good to discuss with others. The Forum is a great way for fellow naval enthusiasts to share views. No one person has all the right answers, least of all me. I tried walking on water once when I capsized a small sailing dingy; didn't work for me! Torpedo systems always seem to generate a lot of comments as there isn't a easy, simple answer. It's a trade-off. Right now, I'm looking at ways to further streamline the torpedo system for other time periods which are likely to generate larger fleet actions. Together, we may find improvements and ways to streamline, without simply resorting to an abstract die roll.