8 replies to this topic

[gregoryk]

What is the effect on a ship of an irreparable rudder (important in a campaign)? Does it get towed?Gregory

[Kenneth D. Hall]

I believe the rule as written is in effect for the balance of the engagement only. You probably would be all right concluding that the ship, assuming it survived the engagement and did not come under subsequent surface or air attack, could make some sort of steering repair, jury-rigged though it may be, during the "next" 24 hours or so (in other words, after the engagement). I don't think towing would be required, although steering with the engines may be. I'm still thinking about a steering with the engines house rule.Edit to add: Steering with the engines or jury steering would be less efficient, of course. One might rule that the ship must move n yards (n being some multiple of 100) straight ahead for every tick mark of turn, in order to make the turning circle perhaps 3x or 4x the standard size. Speed may be limited as well. Steering with the engines would seem to work better at low speed, and jury repairs are less likely to fail at reduced speeds.Permanent repairs would require port facilities, or at least late-war access to Tenth Fleet if you're the U.S. player. ;)

[James Davis]

IIRC in the case of the Bismark they had put divers ove the side ( must have been interesting forthe divers ) and were unable to repair the problem, I am guessing that in some cases engien sterring would work, but in more extreme cases not. I had thought that if worse came to worse, you seal off the area and try blowing the rudder off--with a chance of large holes in the hull and / or prop damage. A repair ship of tow might be theonly answer. Makes for an interesting scenario especially in an area like the artic . One side trying to get a repair ship out the other to find the damaged ship and finish it off. Or capture it? What would the prize money for the Bismark have been?Jim

[Lonnie Gill]

Good comments from all of you on the rudder critical hit issue. As written, a ship with a rudder jam that can't be repaired (i.e., rolled on the Damage Control table) is stuck and can't get home. There are several famous examples of this (Bismarck, Hiei, etc.) where rudder jams doomed the ship and caused her to be caught or scuttled. Lots of less famous ships suffered a similar fate as well. So, the rule as written simulates this very real problem.Those of you who want to consider all the possibilities for your campaign can take it a step further. Towing a warship with a jammed rudder with another warship is next to impossible. Tow lines wouldn't have been strong enough to drag thousands of tons sideways through the water, fighting endless inertia to keep turning. It would require lashing ships alongside to attempt to counter the rudder thrust and crab along at very low speed. And, think of all those tons of metal grinding against each other hour after hour after hour. Not very likely in a war zone. Further, both the damaged ship and her would be helpers would be sitting ducks, very easy targets for anything the opponents would care to throw at them. Hence, the decision was almost universally made to scuttle and save the damaged ship's crew and other ships from needless loss.The only practical way to move a ship with unrepairable rudder damage would be using salvage tugs. Not normally handy in a combat zone. Consider the famous Friday the 13th battle of Guadacanal. The Hiei was lost due to rudder damage while the Portland with unrepairable rudder damage was saved. The Hiei couldn't be towed all the way up the Slot and couldn't escape the tender mercies of the Cactus Airforce next morning. CAs and DDs couldn't counter her mass or tow against her massive inertia. And safety was far too far away. End result, inevitable aerial damage and eventual scuttle. Two nights later, Kirishima also suffered rudder damage, but that was only part of her problems after Washington was done. Had her other damage been less severe, rudder damage might still have posed a major problem. Portland was also still turning circles the morning of the 14th. But, the circumstances were different. The USN actually did have a salvage tug nearby to help get her moved a few miles. [Talk about the USN having some foresight to be ready to help ships damaged in Iron Bottom Sound! Somebody used his head.] The Americans were able to get her to nearby "safety" at Tulagi IIRC long enough to make enough major repairs to ready her for the long trip home. Cactus aircover was also nearby to protect her while the Hiei was at the very limit of IJN attempts to cover her with CAP. So, with certain special conditions (salvage tug, limited distance to temporary refuge and good aircover to buy the time needed for jury rig repairs), it could be done.In a more extreme case, Bismarck had no hope of any help. And, Jim, you're right. The divers on the Bismarck must have had an interesting time indeed! Her captain and the admiral even considered blowing off her rudder with explosives. But, they deemed the probability of success was too low. And, with only three propeller shafts, any resulting damage to a propeller would have prevented steering with her engines as well. Of course, considering her fate, maybe they should have tried anyway!So, can an unrepairable rudder damaged ship get away in a campaign? Probably not, unless special conditions - and special help - are present. You'll have to evaluate the circumstances on an exception basis.Finally, there's been lots of comment elsewhere on the Forum as to the ability of San Francisco's 8" guns to damage Hiei. I've found no evidence that her engineering spaces or belt armor were penetrated. Topsides and secondaries were thoroughly shot up and she had some flooding, but her citadel remained. Flooding of her steering room from various hits on her stern led to the fatal rudder jam that couldn't be fixed in a combat zone. Serendipity perhaps, but very much a "C•S•T" result. Something to consider...LONNIE

[Richard Cornwell]

Also,The Edinburgh (with 5 tons of gold on board) had rudder damage when hit by 2 U boat torpedoes. It was being towed ( a day or two later) when 3 German destroyers attacked and the tow was cast off. Despite using engines to steer (very erratically) it went round 3 complete circles before getting torpedoed and having to be abandoned.All the bestRichard

[Lonnie Gill]

Thaks Richard. Quite right. BTW, this makes for an interesting scenario as well. It can also provide a nice challenge for the British and the Kriegsmarine captains. Also gives you a chance to use some of the smaller ships such as minesweepers in a surface action. Proper smoke and torpedo tactics are required.LONNIE

[Richard Cornwell]

Speaking of this action, is there an SDS for a Halcyon class minesweeper in the SDSs? I can't spot one.BTW, in future editions it might be useful to include a note as to what class each ship comes from. Its generally pretty obvious for cruisers and above, but for destroyers and below it can be a bit problematic, particulalry if the name ship of a class isn't there. For example, it takes a bit of knowledge to realise that HMS Maori is a Tribal class, not an M class destroyer.

[Lonnie Gill]

HMS Bramble, a famous Halycon class minesweeper on the Murmansk Run, is listed on the "R N Escorts" Ship Log sheet. I realize it can be a bit of a chore to track down the class via a ship's name. In order to provide as many ships per page as possible, it was not practical to include the class listing on each Ship Log due to size limits. Data was boiled down to the essential to maintain visual clarity. I did try to list at least one of almost all major warship classes to assist in preparing scenarios. Wide coverage was, in my opinion, the better tradeoff, but it can take some work with reference files to track down some of the lesser known ships.We are currently looking at some options which may - in the future - provide a way to list class and other useful data. This will take a while to work through. In the meantime, post an inquiry on the Forum if you get stuck. A number of very knowledgeable folks utilize the Forum and are willing to help. They're always willing to lend a helping hand to a shipmate.LONNIE

[William MacGillivray]

rcornwell wrote:

BTW, in future editions it might be useful to include a note as to what class each ship comes from. Its generally pretty obvious for cruisers and above, but for destroyers and below it can be a bit problematic, particulalry if the name ship of a class isn't there. For example, it takes a bit of knowledge to realise that HMS Maori is a Tribal class, not an M class destroyer.

You think that one is bad, what about HMS Gurkha?(For the uninitiated, there was more than one in WW2. The first was a Tribal with 4 twin 4.7" mounts, the second one of the L-class with 4 twin 4" mounts.)Bill