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Submarine data card and rules - 1


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#1 Charles Markuss

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 02:46 AM

This post is for discussion and consideration on the current rules for submarines in GQ3.Page 3-1 Submarine Data Tables – diving times.There is no way the US old S class took as long to dive (1 AP) as the large and slow-diving Gato and Balao classes, with their large conning towers and radar and other clutter. The latter needed 40 seconds, even after some pruning had taken place. Given that the S class displaced less than a British T class, which could dive in 30-35 seconds, I would increase diving times for the Gato and Balao classes to 1.5 AP, or rate them the same as the French Surcouf (which is unfairly treated in this regard).The approximate diving times for various types are listed below. The figures posted on the GQ3 website for the German types XXI and XIII are incorrect; those below from Rössler’s definitive work on U-boats.British U and V classes 12-15 seconds, German type XXIII 14 seconds (often erroneously shown as 9 seconds), British S class 20-25 seconds, German type XXI 25 seconds (prototypes 20 seconds but slower submerged speed), German type VII 25-30 seconds, continued

#2 Jim O'Neil

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 08:08 AM

The problem with these (and all Numbers) is where did they come from and how were they generated.It takes a very, very good crew to submerge any boat in 12 seconds, even if sailing with the bottom valves open as many US Subs did in WW 2. There is more than just displacement involved, and the complexities would ruin a game. The General Quarters values are an average value covering all sorts of crews, and I am sure we can both arrive at different numbers that we each could justify.If you want your S-Boat to dive faster, go for it ... the intent was to provide an accurate FEEL for the Naval war, not absolute accuracy.The variances between US Fleet boats ran about 15-20 seconds after concerted training... weather, and crew readiness are only a part of it. Example, US Fleet boats did not cruise around with the bow planes cranked out... they had to be deployed before they could get the bow down for the dive! If left out while on the surface, speed and weather would damage them ... those bow planes were designed for

#3 Charles Markuss

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:12 AM

Once again, thanks. The old S class gets a raw deal, and I posted the data to make the point. I agree about comparative data being hard to come by, but most comes from sub captains' memoirs and trials. Weather and sea state could help or hinder, but I think the comparisons are valid in identical situations.

#4 Jim O'Neil

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:56 AM

I concur, if we knew the data had been gathered in essentially similar conditions using the same testing standards, we could be comfortable knowing we were comparing apples to apples.I am not comfortable that this is the case at all.All historians know to take "first hand" accounts with a grain (or several pounds in some cases) of salt, as the fish always grows with time. The best numbers come from official tests, which try for objectivity. Thy are often very hard to find.




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