Jump to content


Photo

skirmishing


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 30 December 2008 - 12:23 PM

The issue of skirmishing has come up for review with a gent I have had contact with in discussions over a different game system. I have just ordered what promises to be a very useful reference book on the period, From Flintlock to Rifle: Infantry Tactics, 1740-1866, by Steven T. Ross. Currently skirmishers are handled by a die roll. I would like to see if that die roll can be eliminated, and the role of skirmishers detailed more closely for the periods being modeled.Have skirmishers been used much in the games folks have played?Cheers, Gregory

#2 Bob Benge

Bob Benge

    Mein Panzer Guru

  • ODGW Staff
  • 1,191 posts
  • LocationLas Cruces, NM

Posted 05 January 2009 - 01:21 PM

Only by veteran players to help reduce the affects of artillery.

#3 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:57 AM

I propose doing away with the skirmish table, and making the role of skirmishers more explicit, i.e., they screen troops behind them. Though it is not clear that this is the way they were used in the AWI or War of 1812, it does seem better than a table effect. Another idea is that formed troops can ignore skirmishers, while disordered troops will fire on them. This seems more in keeping with their usage.Gregory

#4 Dewey LaRochelle

Dewey LaRochelle

    Private

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 01 March 2009 - 07:35 AM

We have been thinking about this in my group. Still not sure what is really workable. I do notice that they are not used as much, mainly because you are committing a regiment to the skirmish.

#5 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 02 March 2009 - 03:06 PM

Typically a company would skirmish for a battalion or a regiment (essentially the same thing in the AWI). This might equal one-two stands, and require some individually based figures. Nonetheless, I think it well worth the effort, as skirmishers are an important part of the game and of tactics in the horse & musket period.Cheers,Gregory

#6 Colin Upton

Colin Upton

    Private

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 13 August 2009 - 07:26 PM

"Almost all troops may assume Open order."True for the ACW however the War of 1812 (my speciality you could say) it’s surprising how many units (particularly American) were not trained to fight in open order! One reads of American columns at the Battle of Chrylser’s Farm floundering around the woods in close order! I’m sure this was true in the AWI as well. Is it clear which troops may not operate in Open Order? "As BattleLines is a regimental level game, no more than 5 skirmishers maybe deployed at the same time from a single unit."I’m sorry, I don’t understand this. Even during the small battles of the War of 1812 entire units could and did deploy entirely in skirmish. It made sense considering how heavily wooded the terrain was. That’s what units like the Glengarry Light Infantry Fencibles, Canadian Voltiguers and US Rifle regiments were for! Both sides used militia units as skirmishers. You could say this was covered by the Open Order rules but skirmishing and open order aren’t the same things! I find it a bit confusing, in these rules “open order” is what I would call skirmishing while the “skirmish” rules work well for what I would call “regimental skirmishers” or “Flank company skirmishers”."In the Army Lists, only those units thathave a “Y” in the SK column may deployskirmishers. In the American Revolutionand the War of 1812, only the Lightcompanies may skirmish."It’s not clear if or how many US Line regiments in the War of 1812 had flank companies! British Grenadier flank companiess were also used as skirmishers.

#7 Bob Benge

Bob Benge

    Mein Panzer Guru

  • ODGW Staff
  • 1,191 posts
  • LocationLas Cruces, NM

Posted 14 August 2009 - 12:30 AM

Great Info! :)Thank You.

#8 Colin Upton

Colin Upton

    Private

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:15 PM

> >> > "As this was a carry over statement from the previous edition, that is a fair question. But regarding open order, this seemed to be more the norm for AWI militia than close order drill, excepting a few famous units. They were not in close order to begin with in many pitched battles. And close order drill may be circumscribed in the notes for AWI Battlelines due to the recent training of the Continentals for this drill. I am considering some restrictions on their formation movement in 1776-77 to reflect their relatively untrained maneuver capability."In the early 19th skirmishing were a particular skill set aquired after much training, as was moving in open order later in the centuary. Perhaps for AWI miltia there should be a "mob" catagory? One that moves like skirimishers but are less effective in combat? That might also be used for Sedatary Militia of the War of 1812 who also fought as skirmishers. > > "Skirmish as understood by most people really only began with the drill of the Na"poleonic armies. During the AWI, there is some discussion (see Ross, op.cit. ) whether skirmishers as formally understood in later years actually were used. They may have simply been irregulars or light troops covering the flanks, used as harassment, in woods as rearguards, etc. I have been researching this and do not find skirmish drill as part of the manuals of the period, nor do the battle reports specify their deployment."> The use of regular light infantry (as opposed to rangers) in North America goes back to the Fench & Indian war where the Anglo-Americans in particular had to learn the hard lesson of being able to fight the Quebecois and thier First Nations allies on equal terms in "forest fighting". The 80th foot, Highlanders, one battalion of the 60th foot and another of Mass. Provincials trained as light infantry. The training was not systematic as it became later,was all very new, with less emphisis on supports, but otherwise it sure looks liked skirimshing to me. I doubt this experiance was forgotten by the AWI as both sides had light troops galor!. (British Light Infantryman of the 7YW North America. Osprey Warrior 88.)> "ACW is another case entirely, and there again it was not apparent that skirmishers had the same role as the early 19th century."Other than sharpshooter units I don't think much skirmishing as understood in the Napoleonic times was involved. By the ACW, every man was a potential "skirmisher". > > > "This might require some attention to OoB's of the period, as well as battle accounts. I admittedly am not as familiar with War of 1812 as I am with AWI and ACW, but if you have documentation regarding specific units and battles, by all means send it along!"> > The subject of militia on both sides of the War of 1812 is particularly complex! For the Anglo-Canadians there were Select Embodied Milita, Militia Light Infantry Battalions (which was made up of "Flank Companies" Including Grenadiers?), Sedatary Milita, Volunteers, Incorporated Milita, Fencibles and Provincials. I'll be happy to help. (British Forces in North America, 1793-1815 Osprey Men At Arms 319)Is there any way to stop this reply box from reformatting and jumping all around the place every time I try to type? I think it's the damn pop up ads!

#9 Colin Upton

Colin Upton

    Private

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:21 PM

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that while skirmishing became formalised with proper training in the napoloeinic period it was not unknown before then. Skirmishers existed in the Seven Years War in North America and even in Europe (such as the croats) where the British were experimenting with light infantry. I suspect some of that experiance woul've carried over to the AWI.

#10 Bob Benge

Bob Benge

    Mein Panzer Guru

  • ODGW Staff
  • 1,191 posts
  • LocationLas Cruces, NM

Posted 16 August 2009 - 05:44 AM

One thing I can add here is that particular changes to Skirmishing can be made in the different Data Books that will be added after the Historical Battlines Core Rule Book is released. The intent is to get a general skirmishing rule in the book then any changes/variances to the rule can be published in the particular era covered by the book. The other choice is to hold of on this and put a different skirmishing rule in each Data Book. The Data Books that are going to be covered will be; AWI, Napoleonics, 1812, Texas War for Independence, Mexican/American War and Civil War. This is not an all inclusive list either, just what we have done and, in the case of Napoleonics, were going to do.

#11 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 16 August 2009 - 06:34 PM

cupton wrote:

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that while skirmishing became formalised with proper training in the napoloeinic period it was not unknown before then. Skirmishers existed in the Seven Years War in North America and even in Europe (such as the croats) where the British were experimenting with light infantry. I suspect some of that experiance woul've carried over to the AWI.

I stand by the statement that they were not used in the Napoleonic way in the early- to mid-18th century. There is no guarantee of tactics of one war carrying over to another, especially as there is no reference to their employment.bbenge wrote:

One thing I can add here is that particular changes to Skirmishing can be made in the different Data Books that will be added after the Historical Battlines Core Rule Book is released. The intent is to get a general skirmishing rule in the book then any changes/variances to the rule can be published in the particular era covered by the book. The other choice is to hold of on this and put a different skirmishing rule in each Data Book. The Data Books that are going to be covered will be; AWI, Napoleonics, 1812, Texas War for Independence, Mexican/American War and Civil War. This is not an all inclusive list either, just what we have done and, in the case of Napoleonics, were going to do.

It will be difficult to write a skirmishing rule generic enough to cover all periods. This is one of the downsides of the Core rules concept. In any case, this discussion should be taken up in another forum.Cheers,Gregory

#12 michael kneis

michael kneis

    Private

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 10 May 2010 - 02:11 PM

I use the rules for AWI and always use SK's as converged units. We don't use SK's stands to screen units, but have had entire SK units in front of formed units. The one thing I don't really get is why an SK unit doesn't recieve negitive fire modifers? When in loose/open order a minus one fire modifier exists. Is there a reason or am I missing a rule?

#13 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:30 PM

I am particularly pleased with the new way skirmishers will be handled. You count up each stand of skirmishing figures, or each individual group of four figures. If the FM for the group equals 2+, then one die is rolled for every stand skirmishing, and always on the KV=1 line, no matter how far or close to the target, and what cover it is in (assuming LoS). If the FM = 1 or 0, then you shoot one die for every 1˝ stands, or twice for every three stands. If your FM = -1 or worse then you shoot one die for every two stands. This very easily simulates the mobile nature of the skirmishers and their ability to put harassing fire on enemy positions. It has worked very well in playtest, and does not require different die rolls to see what got hit as does the current RAW method.Cheers,Gregory

#14 michael kneis

michael kneis

    Private

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:33 AM

this sounds great. I will try it tonight.

#15 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 11 May 2010 - 01:58 PM

Please let us know how it works. Our playtests have found it very nicely and simply captures the essence of skirmishers, without having special downgrades for their fire effect.Cheers,Gregory

#16 michael kneis

michael kneis

    Private

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 19 May 2010 - 05:01 AM

tried it and love it....!!!! fought monmouth and it worked well.

#17 gregoryk

gregoryk

    GQ3 Product Manager

  • ODGW Retired Staff
  • 1,048 posts

Posted 19 May 2010 - 12:29 PM

Glad to hear you had a successful playtest. The latest version of the AmBl rules give skirmishers a -4 modifier to the attackers KV, which basically forces them to close with and run off the skirmish lines, as was done in many battles. There will be period specific uses of skirmishers. For example, during the AWI, they may only be available to use in cover and on flanks. Other periods apparently used them differently. All depends what my research shows on the individual battles. Of course any input for the group is greatly appreciated.Cheers,Gregory




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users