10 replies to this topic

[Franz Reichardt]

Hi Group,imagine a Cruiser behind a Smoke Screen AT DAYTIME that will be shot by an Italian Ship.Let's use the Diagramm in the "Surface Operation"-Chapter on Page 16 in the Rulebook (the Italian "R-" Radar).Does the Artillery-Attack work like this for the Italians?1.) Measure the Distance to Target2.) With this Distance in mind look up on the "R-"-Row, whether the Target is automatically DETECTED or if I have to dice for DETECTION.Cease Attempt to Fire if no DETECTION was achived.3.) Look up in the "Full Moon"-Row, whether the Target is automatically ACQUIRED or if I have to dice for ACQUISITION.4.) If ACQUISITION was achieved: Permission to FireCorrect?I'm so unsure on 3.) because it is daytime.Greets Franz

[Dave Franklin]

The Itialian R- SURFACE SEARCH radar would nominally allow the Italian ship to track the enemy cruiser on the other side of the smoke screen, but there are only two ways I can think of that any ship could fire on another ship on the other side of a smoke screen:1. Via Blind Fire using Radar Fire Control (RFC) - which Italian ships don't have.2. If they had a spotter plane up.

[Cpt M]

As co_diver correctly stated, the only way you can fire on a target that is behind a smoke screen is by blind fire with RFC (and only late war RFC is capable of this) or by calling fire from a dedicated spotter aircraft from the firing ship that has the target in sight.

[Franz Reichardt]

Coastal wrote:

... the only way you can fire on a target that is behind a smoke screen is by blind fire with RFC

Thanks guys - got it.So the Firing Procedure for a Ship with RFC is1.) Measure the Distance to Target2.) Take that Distance with the Nation's Gunfire Chart - rightmost Column3.) Apply ModifiersCorrect?Greet Franz

[Dave Franklin]

Coastal, I thought I remembered that R+ RFC was required to do blind fire too, but I can't find where it says so in the rules. 1.11.6 doesn't specifically call out R+ RFC. Can you point us to it?FriedericusRex, according to 1.11.6, for blind fire a '1' is required to hit at all ranges. So, as long as the target is in range of the battery you are shooting, roll the appropriate number of D12s (based on the number of guns firing) and look for '1's.Note: It's not specifically called out in the rules (that I can see), but if I were judging a game, if a multiple-batteries-firing-on-the-same-target situation occured during blind fire, I would halve the number of D12s thrown.

[Franz Reichardt]

co_diver wrote:

FriedericusRex, according to 1.11.6, for blind fire a '1' is required to hit at all ranges. So, as long as the target is in range of the battery you are shooting, roll the appropriate number of D12s (based on the number of guns firing) and look for '1's.Note: It's not specifically called out in the rules (that I can see), but if I were judging a game, if a multiple-batteries-firing-on-the-same-target situation occured during blind fire, I would halve the number of D12s thrown.

Dear co_driver,thanks for the clarification and the Tip.But now I'm confused about Firing in Bad Weather conditions.I understood the procedure in 1.11.2 But is it exclusively for nighttime scenarios?What happens, if I want to shoot at a Target in a Squall - do I "blind Fire" (as you described it) or do I use the procedure as noted under 1.11.2?Greets Franz

[Cpt M]

What happens, if I want to shoot at a Target in a Squall - do I "blind Fire" (as you described it) or do I use the procedure as noted under 1.11.2?

Situations involving squalls are covered in the Amendment 1 free download, section 1.11.7. Essentially, radar is severely degraded by rain.

[Dave Franklin]

The two key terms are Detected and Acquired. Acquired means you have seen and identified the target visually. Detected means you have some other indication of the target (e.g. radar or radar detector infomation). Except for Blind Fire or via a spotter plane (e.g over the horizon), a ship must have Acquired a target to shoot at it (and the rules say even to Blind Fire the target must have been previously visually acquired/identified).Strictly IAW the rules, daytime Acquisition occurs automatically out to maximum visibility. Weather (e.g. haze, fog, etc.) can reduce the maximum visibility.Also strictly IAW the rules, the row shifts for RFC only apply at night, not during the day.Amendment 1 has, well, an amendment, about squalls and radar/RFC. For RFC, it states "...adjust UP one row on the GUNFIRE CRT for squall degradation when employing RFC for gunnery attacks." Nominally this would only apply for night, for as I said above, the row shifts for RFC only apply at night.If you can still Acquire the target in the squall (visibility for rain squalls is D6x1000yds, and for snow squalls is D6x500yds) in the daytime, you can shoot at it without penalty.Blind fire at a target in or behind a squall is not specifically covered. Personally if I were judging, and you wanted to use RFC to Blind Fire at a ship in or behind a squall, I would halve the number of D12s thrown.

[Franz Reichardt]

Thanks guys, you all helped me a lot.Greets Franz

[Lonnie Gill]

Good discussion guys. You have worked through most of the issues in a complex situation, but there are a few loose ends to tie up. Let me address them (in no particular order):1. Italian and French warships did NOT have RFC during the 1939 – 1943 period they were actively engaged in combat operations. You’ll note there are no RFC adjustments listed on their GUNFIRE CRTs, unlike the CRTs for the other navies, or on French and Italian Ship Logs. [Purists will note that several French ships received USN radar suites for Pacific operations in mid to late 1945. If you want use them, refer to the USN CRT.]2. As noted, rule Section 1.11.6 states that RFC “blind fire” requires that a target has previously been visually acquired. True “blind fire” attacks required the development of the PPI scope, aligned with thoroughly worked out and standardized CIC procedures to create the synthetic situational awareness necessary to fully identify and engage unseen targets. This took until late in WW II, and some would question its efficiency even then. Since this is quite a complex subject, I left it at that for the basic rules as there were few cases where true “blind fire” was employed.3. But presumably, the case raised here is when an engaged target steams behind smoke or into a rainsquall and the firing ship wants to switch from visual fire control to RFC to continue to engage. In this case, it is not necessary to go through the radar detection process in rule Section 1.11.2, as RFC would have already been tracking an engaged target. RFC attacks do require switching to the Dark or RFC – range scales with appropriate row shifts. Keep in mind that RFC was an immature technology with a number of limitations such as “land shadow” (rule Section 1.11.4) and multiple battery interference (rule Section 1.5.6, clarified in Amendment 1). Rain and snow squalls also degrade WW II era radar performance as added in the Amendment 1 update to rule Section 1.11.7. Thus, RFC is possible, but conditions may easily shift the attack up to the “½” row or even off the CRT.4. At the next level of detail, the comments several of you made in this discussion are correct; only “R+” radars can really employ “blind fire” against unobserved targets. “R –“ and “R =” radars lack the range and, in particular, the azimuth discrimination for true “bind fire” with any real expectation of accuracy. This distinction will be added in Amendment 2, now in work.5. Finally, as noted, targets behind smoke (but not in a squall) can also be engaged by using a spotter plane. Concealing your own battle line with smoke while engaging the opponents with aerial spotting would convey a crucial advantage. [It was a tactic developed and much practiced in the Interwar period. Contrary to popular myth, pre war admirals were [i]very[/i] concerned about air superiority.] However, aerial spotting on an unseen target was less effective than augmenting visual fire control. A clarification is being considered for Amendment 2 that would provide that attacks using only aerial spotting would employ the normal range scale, without the air spot shift in rule Section 1.5.6. Further, the time delays for communicating spotting and corrections would prohibit rapid fire attacks.LONNIE

[Franz Reichardt]

Great clarificationThanks Lonnie