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#1 Blue Leader

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:22 AM

I am in the process of compiling some new errata and clarifications to the Engagement rules, which I will post to the Download Library soon.

#2 Mike Bentley

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:22 PM

Here are my suggestions. File attached. [file name=Comments_on_The_Solomons_Campaign_Rules_by_ODGW_doc.doc size=32768]http://www.odgw.com/images/fbfiles/files/Comments_on_The_Solomons_Campaign_Rules_by_ODGW_doc.doc[/file]

#3 Mike Bentley

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:30 PM

Attachment doesn't seem to open properly. Here is cut and paste.Comments on The Solomons Campaign Rules by ODGWMike Bentley, 30 Oct 2010Clarification Needed.1. Engagement vs. Contact. To be an engagement, is it [(1 and 2) or 3], or is it [1 and (2 or 3]? We decided on [(1 and 2) or 3], but we had to puzzle over it for a while.2. Ship Damage and Repair.a. Is a BC a battleship for the purposes of this rule? We said yes.b. What is "50% weapons" damage? Which weapons are included, and how is it calculated? By battery, or by total mounts? We decided on main gun battery only, even for DDs.3. Glossary. The definition for Engagement does not mention being damaged.Suggested Changes.1. Ship Damage and Repair. a. In the first sentence, remove the "and" from "and/or." Rationale: Not needed. The "or" takes care of everything the rule needs. That is, any ship meeting the "and" criteria also meets the "or" criteria.b. In the second sentence, same comment as for the first sentence.c. What about hits the crew can't repair, but that don't qualify as Crippled or Disabled? I decided I could voluntarily send a ship away for repairs and take my chances with the die roll for its return.2. Engagement vs. Contact, and Engagements B, C, D, E, F, and W. By the rules, any damage, to any ship in the force, will abort a mission. There is no way to press on. This REALLY hurts. Why would a BT mission with BBs and CAs turn back if one DD loses one gun mount? Also, 15 minutes of combat rules out performing a mission? Suggest this rule be modified, or removed. Or add one of those explanatory boxes.3. Engagement E. The last sentence says to subtract one additional Index point for each BB in the force. Suggest you remove this sentence since there is no way for a BB or BC to be part of a BR.4. Engagement H. The second paragraph says "attack each supply mission twice,". Suggest you consider removing the word "each" since the paragraph above states "roll a separate engagement...for each IJN supply mission".5. Added 2 Nov. Page 15. Engagement Resolution Table. IJN column. Unengaged B. Why is there a dagger superscript on the B?6. Added 8 Nov. Eng. D. We have had trouble with these instructions a couple of times. We had another knowledgeable player there Sat. and he agreed they weren't clear. After slowly reading, parsing and discussing, we figured it out. I suggest setting up parallel construction as follows: "Truk bombardment force vs Allied surface force. Roll D12: Patrol. On a 1-5..." I think part of the problem (for me anyway) is not being used to thinking of a USN B mission. It threw me off.7. Are the GQ3 Campaign repair rules part of TSC?. That is, Rule 4.8.2, Damage Repair, in Ports.

#4 Blue Leader

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:43 PM

I will answer your points and in some cases make changes to the rules. Thank you for responding.

#5 Blue Leader

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 04:06 PM

MikeB wrote:

Attachment doesn't seem to open properly. Here is cut and paste.Comments on The Solomons Campaign Rules by ODGWMike Bentley, 30 Oct 2010Clarification Needed.1. Engagement vs. Contact. To be an engagement, is it [(1 and 2) or 3], or is it [1 and (2 or 3]? We decided on [(1 and 2) or 3], but we had to puzzle over it for a while.2. Ship Damage and Repair.a. Is a BC a battleship for the purposes of this rule? We said yes.

You are correct

b. What is "50% weapons" damage? Which weapons are included, and how is it calculated? By battery, or by total mounts? We decided on main gun battery only, even for DDs.3. Glossary. The definition for Engagement does not mention being damaged.

I will try a stricter definition of Engagement and add it to the Glossary

Suggested Changes.1. Ship Damage and Repair. a. In the first sentence, remove the "and" from "and/or." Rationale: Not needed. The "or" takes care of everything the rule needs. That is, any ship meeting the "and" criteria also meets the "or" criteria.b. In the second sentence, same comment as for the first sentence.c. What about hits the crew can't repair, but that don't qualify as Crippled or Disabled? I decided I could voluntarily send a ship away for repairs and take my chances with the die roll for its return.2. Engagement vs. Contact, and Engagements B, C, D, E, F, and W. By the rules, any damage, to any ship in the force, will abort a mission. There is no way to press on. This REALLY hurts. Why would a BT mission with BBs and CAs turn back if one DD loses one gun mount? Also, 15 minutes of combat rules out performing a mission? Suggest this rule be modified, or removed. Or add one of those explanatory boxes.

I will tighten up this definition.

3. Engagement E. The last sentence says to subtract one additional Index point for each BB in the force. Suggest you remove this sentence since there is no way for a BB or BC to be part of a BR.4. Engagement H. The second paragraph says "attack each supply mission twice,". Suggest you consider removing the word "each" since the paragraph above states "roll a separate engagement...for each IJN supply mission".5. Added 2 Nov. Page 15. Engagement Resolution Table. IJN column. Unengaged B. Why is there a dagger superscript on the B?6. Added 8 Nov. Eng. D. We have had trouble with these instructions a couple of times. We had another knowledgeable player there Sat. and he agreed they weren't clear. After slowly reading, parsing and discussing, we figured it out. I suggest setting up parallel construction as follows: "Truk bombardment force vs Allied surface force. Roll D12: Patrol. On a 1-5..." I think part of the problem (for me anyway) is not being used to thinking of a USN B mission. It threw me off.7. Are the GQ3 Campaign repair rules part of TSC?. That is, Rule 4.8.2, Damage Repair, in Ports.



#6 Blue Leader

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 04:34 PM

MikeB wrote:

Attachment doesn't seem to open properly. Here is cut and paste.Comments on The Solomons Campaign Rules by ODGWMike Bentley, 30 Oct 2010Clarification Needed.1. Engagement vs. Contact. To be an engagement, is it [(1 and 2) or 3], or is it [1 and (2 or 3]? We decided on [(1 and 2) or 3], but we had to puzzle over it for a while.2. Ship Damage and Repair.a. Is a BC a battleship for the purposes of this rule? We said yes.b. What is "50% weapons" damage? Which weapons are included, and how is it calculated? By battery, or by total mounts? We decided on main gun battery only, even for DDs.

Main battery damage is correct, a ship that badly damaged will retire.

3. Glossary. The definition for Engagement does not mention being damaged.Suggested Changes.1. Ship Damage and Repair. a. In the first sentence, remove the "and" from "and/or." Rationale: Not needed. The "or" takes care of everything the rule needs. That is, any ship meeting the "and" criteria also meets the "or" criteria.b. In the second sentence, same comment as for the first sentence.c. What about hits the crew can't repair, but that don't qualify as Crippled or Disabled? I decided I could voluntarily send a ship away for repairs and take my chances with the die roll for its return.2. Engagement vs. Contact, and Engagements B, C, D, E, F, and W. By the rules, any damage, to any ship in the force, will abort a mission. There is no way to press on. This REALLY hurts. Why would a BT mission with BBs and CAs turn back if one DD loses one gun mount? Also, 15 minutes of combat rules out performing a mission? Suggest this rule be modified, or removed. Or add one of those explanatory boxes.3. Engagement E. The last sentence says to subtract one additional Index point for each BB in the force. Suggest you remove this sentence since there is no way for a BB or BC to be part of a BR.4. Engagement H. The second paragraph says "attack each supply mission twice,". Suggest you consider removing the word "each" since the paragraph above states "roll a separate engagement...for each IJN supply mission".5. Added 2 Nov. Page 15. Engagement Resolution Table. IJN column. Unengaged B. Why is there a dagger superscript on the B?6. Added 8 Nov. Eng. D. We have had trouble with these instructions a couple of times. We had another knowledgeable player there Sat. and he agreed they weren't clear. After slowly reading, parsing and discussing, we figured it out. I suggest setting up parallel construction as follows: "Truk bombardment force vs Allied surface force. Roll D12: Patrol. On a 1-5..." I think part of the problem (for me anyway) is not being used to thinking of a USN B mission. It threw me off.7. Are the GQ3 Campaign repair rules part of TSC?. That is, Rule 4.8.2, Damage Repair, in Ports.



#7 Blue Leader

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 04:37 PM

Blue Leader wrote:

MikeB wrote:

Attachment doesn't seem to open properly. Here is cut and paste.Comments on The Solomons Campaign Rules by ODGWMike Bentley, 30 Oct 2010Clarification Needed.1. Engagement vs. Contact. To be an engagement, is it [(1 and 2) or 3], or is it [1 and (2 or 3]? We decided on [(1 and 2) or 3], but we had to puzzle over it for a while.2. Ship Damage and Repair.a. Is a BC a battleship for the purposes of this rule? We said yes.b. What is "50% weapons" damage? Which weapons are included, and how is it calculated? By battery, or by total mounts? We decided on main gun battery only, even for DDs.

Main battery damage is correct, a ship that badly damaged will retire.

3. Glossary. The definition for Engagement does not mention being damaged.Suggested Changes.1. Ship Damage and Repair. a. In the first sentence, remove the "and" from "and/or." Rationale: Not needed. The "or" takes care of everything the rule needs. That is, any ship meeting the "and" criteria also meets the "or" criteria.b. In the second sentence, same comment as for the first sentence.c. What about hits the crew can't repair, but that don't qualify as Crippled or Disabled? I decided I could voluntarily send a ship away for repairs and take my chances with the die roll for its return.2. Engagement vs. Contact, and Engagements B, C, D, E, F, and W. By the rules, any damage, to any ship in the force, will abort a mission. There is no way to press on. This REALLY hurts. Why would a BT mission with BBs and CAs turn back if one DD loses one gun mount? Also, 15 minutes of combat rules out performing a mission? Suggest this rule be modified, or removed. Or add one of those explanatory boxes.3. Engagement E. The last sentence says to subtract one additional Index point for each BB in the force. Suggest you remove this sentence since there is no way for a BB or BC to be part of a BR.4. Engagement H. The second paragraph says "attack each supply mission twice,". Suggest you consider removing the word "each" since the paragraph above states "roll a separate engagement...for each IJN supply mission".5. Added 2 Nov. Page 15. Engagement Resolution Table. IJN column. Unengaged B. Why is there a dagger superscript on the B?6. Added 8 Nov. Eng. D. We have had trouble with these instructions a couple of times. We had another knowledgeable player there Sat. and he agreed they weren't clear. After slowly reading, parsing and discussing, we figured it out. I suggest setting up parallel construction as follows: "Truk bombardment force vs Allied surface force. Roll D12: Patrol. On a 1-5..." I think part of the problem (for me anyway) is not being used to thinking of a USN B mission. It threw me off.7. Are the GQ3 Campaign repair rules part of TSC?. That is, Rule 4.8.2, Damage Repair, in Ports.



#8 Blue Leader

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:08 PM

Thw attachment comments raise good issues with the rules that can be addressed through errata pages.

#9 Dave Franklin

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:03 PM

I still haven't had a chance to run, or even less likely play :( . However, I have read through it a couple of times, thinking about what I would do, and I noticed a couple of things:1. On page 11, Engagement Resolution for August (Turn I), wonder if the last row shouldn’t reference an Allied Recon (vice Assault) like September (Turn II), as the Allies don’t have Assault as a Command Decision option.2. I wonder if I am missing something, or if there aren't some math errors on the US OB as far as aircraft are concerned. For example, Enterprise is listed as having 29 F4Fs and is listed as having 8[16] flights – 8 using the 3 real A/C per GQ3 flight[16 using the 2 real A/C per GQ3 flight for finger-four optional rule]. Shouldn’t this be more like 10[15]? Saratoga is listed as having 33 SBDs and thus 12 flights - shouldn't this be 11? Also, seems like the round up/round down isn't consistent.

#10 Blue Leader

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:59 PM

co_diver wrote:[quote]I still haven't had a chance to run, or even less likely play :( . However, I have read through it a couple of times, thinking about what I would do, and I noticed a couple of things:1. On page 11, Engagement Resolution for August (Turn I), wonder if the last row shouldn’t reference an Allied Recon (vice Assault) like September (Turn II), as the Allies don’t have Assault as a Command Decision option.[/quote]Good catch, it should say Recon.[qote]2. I wonder if I am missing something, or if there aren't some math errors on the US OB as far as aircraft are concerned. For example, Enterprise is listed as having 29 F4Fs and is listed as having 8[16] flights – 8 using the 3 real A/C per GQ3 flight[16 using the 2 real A/C per GQ3 flight for finger-four optional rule]. Shouldn’t this be more like 10[15]? Saratoga is listed as having 33 SBDs and thus 12 flights - shouldn't this be 11? Also, seems like the round up/round down isn't consistent.[/quote]I will double-check the math, as you say.

#11 Dave Franklin

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:53 PM

Another, and AFAIK last set of comments:1. Under Naval Mission Command Decisions (pg3), it says “All Allied ships may conduct two missions per Monthly Turn.” This doesn’t really seem to be true for Allied CVs – or any ships between CG missions. For example, you can’t assign Enterprise to CG1 and CG2 because they are utilized in the same Engagement (A). Similarly you could not assign, say, North Carolina or DESRON1 as an escort to both CG1 and CG2; however, it would be permissible to assign North Carolina or DESRON1 to a CG command decision and to, say, a “later” B or P mission. Right?2. Under Carrier Group (CG) composition (pg4), it says “Battleships, heavy cruisers and/or light carriers (CVL’s): at least two, with a maximum of six”. Believe there was a thread on the forum where this was supposed to be light cruisers (CLs) vice light carriers (CVLs), but I don’t recall ever seeing an errata page to download. And I can't seem to find the thread either...3. In Surface actions (pg6), it seems a little slow to limit a force containing an APD to 12 knots. Admittedly some of the IJN APDs are not that fast, but I believe the slowest can go 18 knots.4. In the Glossary (pg9), suggest “CVE – designation for an escort carrier” be included, as Taiyo is listed as a CVE on its ship log.Dave

#12 Blue Leader

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:30 PM

co_diver wrote:

Another, and AFAIK last set of comments:1. Under Naval Mission Command Decisions (pg3), it says “All Allied ships may conduct two missions per Monthly Turn.” This doesn’t really seem to be true for Allied CVs – or any ships between CG missions. For example, you can’t assign Enterprise to CG1 and CG2 because they are utilized in the same Engagement (A). Similarly you could not assign, say, North Carolina or DESRON1 as an escort to both CG1 and CG2; however, it would be permissible to assign North Carolina or DESRON1 to a CG command decision and to, say, a “later” B or P mission. Right?

Command Decisions do put an upper limit on the number of certain ships' missions, e.g., carriers. Dave I recall that erratum, but did not post a page with a change. There will be a new full download soon, so that can fix many of the errata we are generating here

2. Under Carrier Group (CG) composition (pg4), it says “Battleships, heavy cruisers and/or light carriers (CVL’s): at least two, with a maximum of six”. Believe there was a thread on the forum where this was supposed to be light cruisers (CLs) vice light carriers (CVLs), but I don’t recall ever seeing an errata page to download. And I can't seem to find the thread either...3. In Surface actions (pg6), it seems a little slow to limit a force containing an APD to 12 knots. Admittedly some of the IJN APDs are not that fast, but I believe the slowest can go 18 knots.

Ships rarely used anything close to flank speed for normal transit, a convoy at 12kts is a fast convoy, and would be about the best that would be maintained for normal transit, I will leave this alone. Gamers never worry about things like breakdown or fuel usage, so limits need to be imposed.

4. In the Glossary (pg9), suggest “CVE – designation for an escort carrier” be included, as Taiyo is listed as a CVE on its ship log.

Good idea!

#13 Blue Leader

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:36 PM

co_diver wrote:

Another, and AFAIK last set of comments:1. Under Naval Mission Command Decisions (pg3), it says “All Allied ships may conduct two missions per Monthly Turn.” This doesn’t really seem to be true for Allied CVs – or any ships between CG missions. For example, you can’t assign Enterprise to CG1 and CG2 because they are utilized in the same Engagement (A). Similarly you could not assign, say, North Carolina or DESRON1 as an escort to both CG1 and CG2; however, it would be permissible to assign North Carolina or DESRON1 to a CG command decision and to, say, a “later” B or P mission. Right?2. Under Carrier Group (CG) composition (pg4), it says “Battleships, heavy cruisers and/or light carriers (CVL’s): at least two, with a maximum of six”. Believe there was a thread on the forum where this was supposed to be light cruisers (CLs) vice light carriers (CVLs), but I don’t recall ever seeing an errata page to download. And I can't seem to find the thread either...3. In Surface actions (pg6), it seems a little slow to limit a force containing an APD to 12 knots. Admittedly some of the IJN APDs are not that fast, but I believe the slowest can go 18 knots.4. In the Glossary (pg9), suggest “CVE – designation for an escort carrier” be included, as Taiyo is listed as a CVE on its ship log.Dave

I appreciate all the comments on this game I enjoyed runningTSC myself over the years which is why I adapted it to General Quarters. I am starting up a new campaign in a few weeks with a group in San Diego. Will have AAR's to post afterwards. We will see if they stay true to most gamers' form and start out with a devastating carrier battle. I caution players against this but warnings usually go mostly unheeded.

#14 Mike Bentley

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:13 PM

Blue Leader--Here is another which Bill and I think needs clarification: In TSC rules, page 7, Ship Damage & Repair, regarding when you roll for a damaged ship to return. The sub-paragraphs at the bottom of the left column say "Roll D12 two Monthly Turns after the ship is disabled-the ship returns on 1-5." So if the ship is damaged in August, you roll the first time in October, right? However, the San Juan example in the preceding paragraph says "it is possible she will return to the campaign in the General Information phase of November." Well, that is possible, but only if she didn't return in October. So, it is very clear you roll after two months. The question is, does the ship return in the month you roll, or the month after you roll? Looking at the transit times to Japan or Hawaii, plus some repair time, I would say two months is consumed with transits and repairs, so you get it the third month. I request you clairfy.BTW, the correct phase would be the General Intelligence phase, not Information. There are several instances in this section.Thanks for all your help.Mike

#15 Blue Leader

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:50 PM

Yes, you roll after two months, and i will clarify the example.




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