17 replies to this topic

[h3st4by]

After Testing the game we have to say the rules are really good !

But there remained a few questions:

1.)
I already read that somewhere here in the forum but it’s actually not written in the rules : One needs a platoon-leader if one uses the command-drop-in, is this correct? If I loose a platoon-leader one stand of his former platoon has to take a “Take command” action to get the new platoon-leader?
2.)
If I use the moral-drop-in, I do a recovery-check if one stand in a unit is e.g. shaken/broken, if I go one moral-level up, counts that only for the shaken stand (so he is steady now) or counts that for the other stands too (they are now inspired)?
3.)
In the current rules the number 10 is missing in the bogging-check-text, it’s only said one have a 50% chance. It’s only written on the adv. Reference card.
4.)
Reactionary action: If a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand and if I pass my TQ-Check, when should I exactly act? Before the enemy stand moves? If it’s exactly 2” away from my stand? At the end of the enemy movement? When I want to act?
5.)
Reactionary action: Is it correct, that I am allowed to try a RA every time a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand (of course only one time in a turn)? Or should it mean only if the enemy stand moves (the first time) into 2” of my stand?
6.)
If a infantry team close assaults an AVF and is pinned by the RA of the AVF; is there any penalty for the infantry attacking the AVF in close combat? I don’t think so.


Thank you

[Bob Benge]

Let me attempt to answer your questions:

1. The rule you are referring to is for Company and Battalion COs only. They do not apply to Platoon COs and Platoon COs are not required. If you decide to use Platoon COs then the method you quoted is correct.

2. The Recovery roll only counts for the stand that is trying to recover its morale.

3. Noted. The original author made the assumption in the rules that 50% chance would equate to 10 or less for the check in the chapter.

4. Per the rules on page 5.4: "When an enemy stand moves within 2" of a friendly stand, it could trigger what is called a Reactionary Action, or RA. If the stand’s TQ check is passed, it may do one of several things in reaction to the enemy’s close proximity. First, the stand may take a Standard Fire Action. Or the stand may take Move Action to move away from the enemy triggering the reaction, using the stand’s CC movement rate. In addition, a stand may pop stop if equipped with smoke dischargers. If the RA is to Fire, the shot must be taken at the stand triggering the RA. In addition, all Reactionary Fire Actions receive a -1/2 or -3, whichever is worse, modifier to their To-Hit Value. Lastly, weapons with a ROF greater than one may only take a single shot. As the shot is taken “from the hip,” there isn’t enough time for accurate or multiple shots. Bonus shots from Troop Quality may still be taken. If the stand is on Overwatch it could feasibly take its OW and then follow up with a Reactionary action, one after another."

So to answer your question, when the unit enters within 2".

So if an enemy unit moves, at the point at it reaches 2" from your unit, you declare RA (Reactionary Action). You then must make your TQ roll. If you make the TQ roll you then take your RA as provided in the rules which can be: 1. Standard Fire Action, 2. Standard Move Action using CC move rate and Pop Smoke if unit equipped with smoke dischargers.

*NOTE* that you must have LOS to the stand entering the 2" RA range. So you will take the RA at 2" or at the range at which you have LOS within 2". This is common sense and not in the rules as the author left the common sense to the GMs.

5. Per the Rules on page 5.4 Reactionary Action; "Finally, a stand may only take one Reactionary Action between activations, although there is no limit on the number of attempts it may take. Once a successful Reaction has been taken, no further attempts may be made until after the stand’s next activation."

The answer to your question is One (1) Successful Reactionary Action per turn. After a successful Reactionary Action you must activate the unit before it is allowed to perform another Reactionary Action. Successful Reactionary Action is defined as declaring the RA and passing the RA TQ check. It does not include a successful fire attempt.

6. Yes. per the Pinned Rules on page 5.4; "While pinned, a stand will always lose its Bonus Move but may still use its Standard Action. If using its Standard Action to fire, the To-Hit or Fire Power of the attack is ½ or -3 ... whichever is worse." Since the Close Combat action uses only the standard action a stand that is pinned by RA can complete the Close Assault on the AFV, but must endure the Pinned combat penalty of the To-Hit or Fire Power of the attack is ½ or -3 ... whichever is worse.

Hope this clears up you questions some.

[h3st4by]

Thank you very much for the fast and very good answers ! the most questions are answered now !
But in two points (my former questions No. 1 and 6) we need further clarification:

No.1)
(If I play with platoon-leaders, the center of the “chain-of-command” is always the platoon-leader.)
If I don’t play with platoon-leaders I don’t completely understand the “chain-of-command”:

When testing the rules we had these questionable situations:

-A unit composed of 5 tanks was in a line, every tank was about 1-2” away from the other.
The tank in the middle was killed so we had two subunits, both composed of two tanks, which were in command distance to each other:

In the beginning they were like this: 1-2-3-4-5
After the enemy shooting it looked like this: 1-2___4-5.

The same, if I have a unit composed of 4 stands and two are moving together away from the other two stands, one could have the same situation:

In the beginning: 1-2-3-4
Later: 1-2____________3-4

-Was in this situation every stand out of command? Or which teams were in command, which teams were out of command?
-If one stand in a unit is out of command, is then the whole unit out of command?

-The other problem was what to do if one has a unit composed of only two teams.
When I have a unit composed of two teams and one team goes 3” away from the other, is only the “away-moving” stand out of command or are both teams out of command?

Suggestion:
Maybe one should add the platoon-leader-rule into the optional rules on page 13.3 .

No.6)
In the rules (page 11.3) is written, if one infantry stand attacks an AVF, there is no to-Hit-roll needed, one directly rolls on the kill-table against the worst defensive value of the AVF using 2 as base offensive value for infantry.

Suggestion:
Maybe one should add the “pinned”-penalty to the table 11.3 – vehicle assault modifiers .

Thank you very much for this very good rule-set !

[Bob Benge]

Well I guess most is a good start.

So on to the clarifications...

1. Chain of Command per rules page 13.2;
"CHAIN OF COMMAND - All together, the Chain of Command works this way:
- 1. Individual Stands must be within Platoon Command Distance of another stand in its platoon.
- 2. At least one platoon stand must be within Company Command Distance of its Coy CO.
- 3. Finally, each Coy CO must be within Battalion Command Distance of his Bttn CO.
Any Coy CO not within Command Distance of his Bttn CO puts the Coy CO and all subordinate units Out of Command. Stands of a platoon outside Platoon Command Distance are Out of Command."

So, the Company Commander must be within the Command Distance of one stand of each Platoon under his command. Each Platoon must simply be in Platoon Command Distance (PCD). Table 13.1 Identifies the Command Distances for each unit while Table 13.2 breaks down the platoon distances annotated in Table 13.1 as; "Platoon 1-12". If you add Platoon Leaders then you would simply add them as the contact point for the Company Commander then give the Platoon Leader his command distance. PCD must still be maintained for the members of the platoon.

In your example, a section of the the group must be identified as in command. They will get their bonus move and the other section will not. So in the case of 1-2---4-5, the player would designate at his choice who is in command, we'll say 1-2. Tanks 1-2 will get their bonus move as they are in command. Tanks 4-5 would not get their bonus move. Typically, the player would move the tanks to get back into command at this point. Typically what we do for games not using the C-in-C rules is designate a command vehicle (Platoon leader) and base the in/out of command from him. If the Platoon Leader dies then the player designates a new Platoon Leader. If a player wants to separate a number of stands away from the rest of the platoon he may do so but would designate that the platoon leader is with one of the groups and that group would maintain its bonus move while the other group would not. Bottom line is that if not using the C-in-C rules then a whole unit is not out of command. The player designates who is in and out of command. Once the designations are made they will remain that way until the unit regains PCD. Common sense should help dictate this. This will be the same no matter how many units are within the platoon. Simply one section will always be in command distance. As such, if later in the game the in command units are destroyed then by default the out of command elements are now in command as command must now shift to them. Again, common sense should be your key.

Your idea to add the platoon leader rule to the optional rules may not be a bad one. I think a touch more detail may be necessary in the situation of not using the C-in-C rules too.

6. The reason why Pinned is not added to the table is that the pin marker is added immediately to the stand(s) when the result is rolled. To continue an attack it should be apparent that the Pinned modifier would be applied. The table only identifies situation modifiers. If you look at the Advanced Reference Card, you will notice that Pinned is not in any of the tables as modifiers. That is because Pinned has its own place on the reference card and applies to ALL combat. Pinned is outlined on page 5.4

Thank you for the compliment. We are very appreciative, more so for the fact you are enjoying the game as much as we do.

[gregoryk]

After Testing the game we have to say the rules are really good !

But there remained a few questions:

1.)
I already read that somewhere here in the forum but it’s actually not written in the rules : One needs a platoon-leader if one uses the command-drop-in, is this correct? If I loose a platoon-leader one stand of his former platoon has to take a “Take command” action to get the new platoon-leader?

2.)
If I use the moral-drop-in, I do a recovery-check if one stand in a unit is e.g. shaken/broken, if I go one moral-level up, counts that only for the shaken stand (so he is steady now) or counts that for the other stands too (they are now inspired)?

You check for the whole unit, so there should not be a case where one stand has a different morale level.

3.)
In the current rules the number 10 is missing in the bogging-check-text, it’s only said one have a 50% chance. It’s only written on the adv. Reference card.

If true that is an error, the basic chance to bog is 50%.

4.)
Reactionary action: If a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand and if I pass my TQ-Check, when should I exactly act? Before the enemy stand moves? If it’s exactly 2” away from my stand? At the end of the enemy movement? When I want to act?

You act at the point when the other stand is 2" away.

5.)
Reactionary action: Is it correct, that I am allowed to try a RA every time a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand (of course only one time in a turn)? Or should it mean only if the enemy stand moves (the first time) into 2” of my stand?

If a stand begins within Reaction range, i.e., 2". Then you do not get to react. It is only when a stand moves to within 2" of your stand.

6.)
If a infantry team close assaults an AVF and is pinned by the RA of the AVF; is there any penalty for the infantry attacking the AVF in close combat? I don’t think so.

The attack is forfeited, due to the pin.


Thank you

[h3st4by]

Thank you very much !

@gregoryk:
“You check for the whole unit, so there should not be a case where one stand has a different morale level.”

When I read the rules I don’t find this phrasing?
So now I am not sure, if I got the moral/recovery rule correctly:


Here a situation we had in our last game:

One Stand of a unit (moral value 15, recovery value 14) composed of three infantry-stands got shot by the enemy and this sole stand got a hit. Now this (my) unit got activated and I had to do my moral check for the whole unit:

Stand A+B had steady moral and were not hit/suppressed etc., so their (modified) moral was 15.
Stand C had steady moral and was hit (-2) and fired upon from Flank (-5), so its modified moral was 8.

I rolled a 10, so stand A+B remained with steady moral level but stand C now was shaken.
@gregoryk: I think here is a situation, one has different moral levels in a unit.


Then after my activation (moving away …) I had to try to recover moral for this unit.

A+B were steady (modified recovery value was 14), C was shaken (+/-0)and was hit (-2), the fired upon from Flank did not count any more, because I made the previous moral check after got shot, so modified recovery value was 12.

I rolled a 3, that means every stand recovered one level.

I am not sure what now exactly happens:
1. If only the shaken stand has to recover all three stands are now steady.
2. If every stand has to recover A+B would be inspired and C would be steady.

After Bob Benges answer, I think option 1 is right. Is that right ?



P.S.:
After playing and reading I have two other questions:
1.
In the WWII data book I read on Page 53.2 (German captured equipment) that a captured weapon is “low of ammo” needs a recovery action, that’s the same like a reload action in the artillery drop in?
2.
Where are the rules for a rolling artillery barrage? I don’t find them ?



Again, thank you very much ! MP2 is far the best rule-set we every played !

[Bob Benge]

Hello h3st4by,

Let me help with your questions:

@gregoryk:
“You check for the whole unit, so there should not be a case where one stand has a different morale level.”

When I read the rules I don’t find this phrasing?
So now I am not sure, if I got the moral/recovery rule correctly:

Actually it does state so in the rules...
In Chapter 12 Morale Drop-In, page 12.1, 3rd column, Morale Check section, 2nd paragraph:

"One roll is made for the unit at the beginning of its activation. This roll is then modified for each individual stand depending on their specific circumstances."

I am not sure what now exactly happens:
1. If only the shaken stand has to recover all three stands are now steady.
2. If every stand has to recover A+B would be inspired and C would be steady.

The answer is 1. If only the shaken stand has to recover all three stands are now steady. The reason is that only stands that require a recovery will be recovered. The recovery check is one roll for the unit and only non-steady, non-inspired stands will get the benefit of the recovery roll as they are the oonly stands that need to recover. So if you happened to roll an Up 2 levels then any Shaken stands would be inspired.

After playing and reading I have two other questions:
1.
In the WWII data book I read on Page 53.2 (German captured equipment) that a captured weapon is “low of ammo” needs a recovery action, that’s the same like a reload action in the artillery drop in?

That is correct. I will have to detail this better in the next edition as in a previous edition of the Core Rules there was a low ammo rule and it was deleted.

2.
Where are the rules for a rolling artillery barrage? I don’t find them ?

The Rolling Barrage rule per se, is located in WW2 Data Book, Chapter 53, page 53.8, Artillery Glossary section, 1st column, 2nd bullet:
"rolling barrages: set to move in a specific direction and/or pattern"

While it really doesn't spell out how the rolling barrage in detail, the basics are that the barrage is pre-plotted prior to the game start and that the pattern or direction of the barrage is detailed in the plot.

Hope this helps.

[h3st4by]

Hello again,

We have a lot of fun with MP2 , but after some further playing last weekend we had some further questionable situations, maybe you could again help us a little bit understanding this outstanding rule set:

1. Is it allowed to move with infantry stands through friendly (e.g. suppressed) infantry and gun stands or does they block moving and one has to go around them?

2. If there are friendly stands and enemy stands in the same wood-area, how far can they see each other?
We thought in a light wood they were able to see 2” and so they are able to use RA/OW against each other; in a heavy wood, we thought, they aren’t able to see each other till they have base-to-base contact; than it’s a close combat so here are no RA/OW actions against each other possible.

3.a. Again RA: If a vehicle use the RA to move it can move CC-Speed, but what if an infantry stand use the RA to move, use they the standard movement or the bonus movement?
3.b. Is LOS necessary for trying RA?
(3.c. In contradiction to the last answer of gregoryk we think the phrasing “when an enemy stand moves within 2” of a friendly stand” and common sense means that every time the enemy stand is moving within 2” should be the possibility for a RA.)

4. We think a stand does get cover-bonuses (soft and hard and linear cover) only if it’s almost completely obscured by the cover? In the rules it is something like that written down only for hard cover, so we aren’t absolutely clear about that for soft and linear cover?

5.a. Close Combat: If a stand was hit in a close combat, is it suppressed too (like being hit by longe-range weapons)?
5.b. If a stand is “broken”/routed after its moral check and it is locked in a close combat, is broken/routed in a close combat ignored and it has so stay there and fight further on or has it to withdrawal/escape if possible?
5.c. If a infantry stand assaults occupying infantry (Page 11.3), there is a “long-range” FP-attack at 2” range; we think there is no HtH instead this is a long-range fire-fight so there are no opposed die-rolls and the only possibility for the attacked occupying stand to do some damage against the attacker in the attackers activation is a successful RA. Is that the right way to play this situation?

6. In the rules it’s written that one gets a spotting bonus if the enemy is firing a back-blast weapon (e.g. Panzerfaust). We don’t find this bonus in the rules, there is only the normal bonus for shooting enemies. Is there an additional bonus?

7. It’s not exactly written down in the rules but we think (common sense) for infantry it’s only allowed to enter buildings/structures through breaches/doors/windows/openings.

8. Ordinarily friendly infantry stands are blocking LOS, but does friendly (infantry/gun) stands in trenches/Foxholes etc. also are blocking LOS for friendly teams behind them? We think (common sense?) they don’t?

9. We think if a stand gets a double-suppress by the same weapon (because high ROF) there has to be a moral check at the next activation. Or is this only applied by different enemy attacks?

10. Vehicle overruns against infantry: One uses the 2” range of the vehicle MGs and so one has the negative movement modifiers -5 and -10 (Page 11.3/11.4). Are these negative movement modifiers cumulative with the other "FP modifiers to kill table" (table 8.3, of course except Firer is moving) or are this two moving modifiers the only FP modifiers for this overrun attack?



Last but not least we have a proposal for a further optional infantry-rule:
You allow tanks to go hull down, why not allow infantry and gun crew stands something like that:
If an infantry stand uses its standard action it is able to go to ground, in this situation this stand gets a -1 (or maybe -2) DM-bonus (cumulative to cover etc.) but its not allowed to move, to try a RA or to do an opposite roll in a HtH.
If this stand is already suppressed it is able to try go to ground either but is has to pass a successfully TQ-check.
This situation lasts till the next activation, than the stand could again use its standard action.
We used an additional marker for that.

With this optional rule we tried to simulate soldiers trying not to fight but only hope/try to survive the enemy fire by looking for the best little cover and go deep to the ground in their trenches or on a flat field.


Thank you very much !!

Hes

P.S.:
I am sorry for my bad English and for this long posting …

[Bob Benge]

Hi h3st4by,
I apologize for the delay in response. ODGW was at Historicon 2011 and the prep work for the Con and my real job kept me off the site for a while.
Well, I am glad you are enjoying the game! Here are the answers to your questions. Oh, by-the-way, I understand you very well so don't apologize for your english.

1. Is it allowed to move with infantry stands through friendly (e.g. suppressed) infantry and gun stands or does they block moving and one has to go around them?

Yes it is. There are no rules that prevent this.

2. If there are friendly stands and enemy stands in the same wood-area, how far can they see each other?
We thought in a light wood they were able to see 2” and so they are able to use RA/OW against each other; in a heavy wood, we thought, they aren’t able to see each other till they have base-to-base contact; than it’s a close combat so here are no RA/OW actions against each other possible.

In Chapter 5 Advanced Game Mechanics, Page 5.4, 3rd column, Observation Section, Line of Sight and Woods subsection, 3rd paragraph;

"Stands positioned within a lightly wooded area may see, or been seen, if within 2" of the wood’s edge. Stands within heavy woods must be on the wood’s edge to shoot out, or be shot at."

3.a. Again RA: If a vehicle use the RA to move it can move CC-Speed, but what if an infantry stand use the RA to move, use they the standard movement or the bonus movement?

While not spelled out, it would be a standard movement action. The intent is to use a standard action for an RA.

Is LOS necessary for trying RA?

Per the rule in Chapter 5 Advanced Game Mechanics, Page 5.4, 1st column, Reactions Section, Line of Sight and Reactionary Action subsection, 1st paragraph;

When an enemy stand moves within 2" of a friendly stand, it could trigger what is called a Reactionary Action, or RA.

No. As there are modifiers for performing an RA to side or rear which would be out of LOS.

4. We think a stand does get cover-bonuses (soft and hard and linear cover) only if it’s almost completely obscured by the cover? In the rules it is something like that written down only for hard cover, so we aren’t absolutely clear about that for soft and linear cover?

For linear cover; Per the rule in Chapter 7 Direct Fire, Page 7.2, 3rd column, To-Hit Modifiers Section, Target Behind Linear Cover subsection, 1st paragraph;

"Similar to being hull down, linear cover is provided when half of a vehicle is hidden by an obstruction. This could be the corner of a building, bridge railing, etc."

- If you use a string and stretch it out between the center of the firer and the center of the target, and it crosses the linear cover then the target would get linear cover.

- For soft and hard cover, it the target is touching the cover (which also means that the target paid movement to enter the soft cover) then the target gets soft cover.

5.a. Close Combat: If a stand was hit in a close combat, is it suppressed too (like being hit by longe-range weapons)?

No. The reason Suppression is not referenced in the Close Combat results is because losing stands may have to retreat and suppressed stands cannot move.

5.b. If a stand is “broken”/routed after its moral check and it is locked in a close combat, is broken/routed in a close combat ignored and it has so stay there and fight further on or has it to withdrawal/escape if possible?

No it is not. The Broken/Routed status takes place immediately and the stands will Break/Rout immediately.
Also, to Close Combat a Broken stand note the following from Chapter 12, Morale Drop-In, page 12.1, 1st column, Introduction Section, Broken subsection, 2nd paragraph;

"Broken stands must take Reaction checks when an enemy approaches within 2", and they can only retreat."

5.c. If a infantry stand assaults occupying infantry (Page 11.3), there is a “long-range” FP-attack at 2” range; we think there is no HtH instead this is a long-range fire-fight so there are no opposed die-rolls and the only possibility for the attacked occupying stand to do some damage against the attacker in the attackers activation is a successful RA. Is that the right way to play this situation?

Yes. the stand moves to the 2" RA range and IF the defending stand makes the RA TQ check then the defending stand can conduct a fire at 2". Remember to include the RA modifier in this combat. If the attacking stand is not pinned, suppressed or killed then it can move to contact.

6. In the rules it’s written that one gets a spotting bonus if the enemy is firing a back-blast weapon (e.g. Panzerfaust). We don’t find this bonus in the rules, there is only the normal bonus for shooting enemies. Is there an additional bonus?

This would be the target moving/firing modifier which is +2.

7. It’s not exactly written down in the rules but we think (common sense) for infantry it’s only allowed to enter buildings/structures through breaches/doors/windows/openings.

Correct

continued below...

[Bob Benge]

8. Ordinarily friendly infantry stands are blocking LOS, but does friendly (infantry/gun) stands in trenches/Foxholes etc. also are blocking LOS for friendly teams behind them? We think (common sense?) they don’t?

That is a point. I will make this a note to add to the rules.

9. We think if a stand gets a double-suppress by the same weapon (because high ROF) there has to be a moral check at the next activation. Or is this only applied by different enemy attacks?

Yes, if a stand takes a double-morale check from the same weapon then a morale check is in order.

10. Vehicle overruns against infantry: One uses the 2” range of the vehicle MGs and so one has the negative movement modifiers -5 and -10 (Page 11.3/11.4). Are these negative movement modifiers cumulative with the other "FP modifiers to kill table" (table 8.3, of course except Firer is moving) or are this two moving modifiers the only FP modifiers for this overrun attack?

The Overrun attack is conducted as a normal attack with the movement modifier from the rule and include the modifiers from the FP Modifiers to Kill Table

Last but not least we have a proposal for a further optional infantry-rule:
You allow tanks to go hull down, why not allow infantry and gun crew stands something like that:
If an infantry stand uses its standard action it is able to go to ground, in this situation this stand gets a -1 (or maybe -2) DM-bonus (cumulative to cover etc.) but its not allowed to move, to try a RA or to do an opposite roll in a HtH.
If this stand is already suppressed it is able to try go to ground either but is has to pass a successfully TQ-check.
This situation lasts till the next activation, than the stand could again use its standard action.
We used an additional marker for that.

With this optional rule we tried to simulate soldiers trying not to fight but only hope/try to survive the enemy fire by looking for the best little cover and go deep to the ground in their trenches or on a flat field.

I will take this up with the staff and see what they think. I like the idea.

[h3st4by]

Once again, Thank you very much !

Sorry, after the last gaming, we have again some little questions , maybe you could help us again a little bit?

1.a Is there a possibility to help “bogged down” or “stuck” vehicles with a recovery vehicle to get them running again? We found only the rules for pushing, but we don’t find rules for recovery vehicles (e.g. Bergepanther) in the rule book.
1.b In the WWII-Data-Book the German recovery vehicles are wrong spelled ("BergPanther", the vehicles have to be named BergePanther or BergePanzerIII. There are two very similar german words with different meanings: the word “Berg” means “Mountain” and the verb “bergen” means “recover”, so, for example Bergpanther means “Mountain-Panther” not "recovery-Panther" .


2.) If Infantry wants cross barbed wire it has to spend 4 move pips (and pass a bogging check). But the most infantry stands only have 2 (standard move) and 3 (bonus move) pips, so we think, if one have to pay for each movement action 4 pips for crossing and 1 pip for moving 1”, a infantry stand can’t cross barbed wire because it wolud need at least 5 Move pips in his standart or his bonus move action.
We chanced the additional 4 move pips to 2 additional move pips so infantry is able to cross barbed wire with its a bonus move.

3.) In the WWII-Data-Book the soviets have SMG/LMG and Rifle/LMG stands. The SMG/LMG stands have at long ranges (18” and 24”) the same or better FP values than the Rifle/LMG stands. We think (common sense?) the Rifle/LMG stand should have the better values at long range.

4.) We again actually didn’t get the rules for shooting in woods: we think the rules at Page 5.4 only describe the situation if one stand is in a wood and another stand is outside.
But what happens if there is a maybe 20”x20” heavy wooded area and one Hungarian infantry stand is in the absolute middle of this heavy wood and there are soviet infantry stands 5” or 2” away deep in the same wood and are trying to catch the Hungarians?
What happens if we have the same situation into a huge light wooded area?



Again another proposal for an optional rule:
We thought to get hit in a fire fight depends on the shooting-skill of the attacker but also in the skill/combat-experience to avoid being hit by the victims. We thought that untrained and green troops don’t use every possible cover if they are in a fire-fight, but veterans and elite troops trained every possible situation in a fire-fight and know what to do if getting under fire.
So we gave for untrained and green stands a +1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them. Veterans and elite stands got a -1 modifier for hitting them or rolling FP against them.

Again, thank you very much for these outstanding rules !

Hes

[Blue Leader]

Once again, Thank you very much !

Sorry, after the last gaming, we have again some little questions , maybe you could help us again a little bit?

1.a Is there a possibility to help “bogged down” or “stuck” vehicles with a recovery vehicle to get them running again? We found only the rules for pushing, but we don’t find rules for recovery vehicles (e.g. Bergepanther) in the rule book.
1.b In the WWII-Data-Book the German recovery vehicles are wrong spelled ("BergPanther", the vehicles have to be named BergePanther or BergePanzerIII. There are two very similar german words with different meanings: the word “Berg” means “Mountain” and the verb “bergen” means “recover”, so, for example Bergpanther means “Mountain-Panther” not "recovery-Panther" .


2.) If Infantry wants cross barbed wire it has to spend 4 move pips (and pass a bogging check). But the most infantry stands only have 2 (standard move) and 3 (bonus move) pips, so we think, if one have to pay for each movement action 4 pips for crossing and 1 pip for moving 1”, a infantry stand can’t cross barbed wire because it wolud need at least 5 Move pips in his standart or his bonus move action.
We chanced the additional 4 move pips to 2 additional move pips so infantry is able to cross barbed wire with its a bonus move.

3.) In the WWII-Data-Book the soviets have SMG/LMG and Rifle/LMG stands. The SMG/LMG stands have at long ranges (18” and 24”) the same or better FP values than the Rifle/LMG stands. We think (common sense?) the Rifle/LMG stand should have the better values at long range.

4.) We again actually didn’t get the rules for shooting in woods: we think the rules at Page 5.4 only describe the situation if one stand is in a wood and another stand is outside.
But what happens if there is a maybe 20”x20” heavy wooded area and one Hungarian infantry stand is in the absolute middle of this heavy wood and there are soviet infantry stands 5” or 2” away deep in the same wood and are trying to catch the Hungarians?
What happens if we have the same situation into a huge light wooded area?




Again another proposal for an optional rule:
We thought to get hit in a fire fight depends on the shooting-skill of the attacker but also in the skill/combat-experience to avoid being hit by the victims. We thought that untrained and green troops don’t use every possible cover if they are in a fire-fight, but veterans and elite troops trained every possible situation in a fire-fight and know what to do if getting under fire.
So we gave for untrained and green stands a +1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them. Veterans and elite stands got a -1 modifier for hitting them or rolling FP against them.

Again, thank you very much for these outstanding rules !

Hes

Our playtest group, MMG uses something similar to your optional rule, where better troops are harder to hit due to their inherent use of cover more effectively. It is a good optional rule.

[Bob Benge]

Once again, Thank you very much !

You are most welcome! I am glad to help!

Sorry, after the last gaming, we have again some little questions , maybe you could help us again a little bit?

No problem as that is what we are here for.

1.a Is there a possibility to help “bogged down” or “stuck” vehicles with a recovery vehicle to get them running again? We found only the rules for pushing, but we don’t find rules for recovery vehicles (e.g. Bergepanther) in the rule book.

This will have to be an addition to the rules as there isn't anything in the rules at the present time. I have add this to the list of updates/corrections I have to take up with the group.

1.b In the WWII-Data-Book the German recovery vehicles are wrong spelled ("BergPanther", the vehicles have to be named BergePanther or BergePanzerIII. There are two very similar german words with different meanings: the word “Berg” means “Mountain” and the verb “bergen” means “recover”, so, for example Bergpanther means “Mountain-Panther” not "recovery-Panther" .

I have corrected this typo in the files and they should be available tomorrow. The updated version of the German Chapter will be 2.2.05.

2.) If Infantry wants cross barbed wire it has to spend 4 move pips (and pass a bogging check). But the most infantry stands only have 2 (standard move) and 3 (bonus move) pips, so we think, if one have to pay for each movement action 4 pips for crossing and 1 pip for moving 1”, a infantry stand can’t cross barbed wire because it wolud need at least 5 Move pips in his standard or his bonus move action.
We changed the additional 4 move pips to 2 additional move pips so infantry is able to cross barbed wire with its a bonus move.

The reason for 4 move pips is to force the stand to spend a full turn to clear the barbed wire. Thus the infantry stand would have to expend all of its movement (5")to cross the barbed wire. A stand will have to move up to the wire on one turn, then expend 4" of movement to cross the wire and move 1" or the stand could move 1" to the wire, then expend 4" of movement to cross the barbed wire.

3.) In the WWII-Data-Book the soviets have SMG/LMG and Rifle/LMG stands. The SMG/LMG stands have at long ranges (18” and 24”) the same or better FP values than the Rifle/LMG stands. We think (common sense?) the Rifle/LMG stand should have the better values at long range.

I am addressing a number of issues with the Infantry Numbers and this is one of them. Stay tuned for the changes.

4.) We again actually didn’t get the rules for shooting in woods: we think the rules at Page 5.4 only describe the situation if one stand is in a wood and another stand is outside.
But what happens if there is a maybe 20”x20” heavy wooded area and one Hungarian infantry stand is in the absolute middle of this heavy wood and there are soviet infantry stands 5” or 2” away deep in the same wood and are trying to catch the Hungarians?
What happens if we have the same situation into a huge light wooded area?

If the both the Hungarian stand and Russian stands are in light woods and they are 2" or less away from each other then they can shoot at each other. If the Hungarian stand is 2" or less from the edge of light woods it can be seen and shot at by the Russian stand if it was in no terrrain or within 2" of another light woods or on edge of Heavy Woods, but gain soft cover. The Hungarian stand could also fire at the Russian stand. For Heavy Woods, If the both the Hungarian stand and Russian stands are 2" or less away from each other then they can shoot at each other. If the Hungarian stand is on the edge of the woods (stand would have to be touching the edge of the woods or partly in the woods), then it could be shot at by the Russian stand if it was in no terrrain or within 2" of another light woods or on edge of Heavy Woods, but gain light cover.

Bottom line rules for Light Woods: if both stands are 2" or less away from each other in the same Light Woods then they can see and shoot at each other. If a stand is within 2" of the edge of Light Woods then it can be seen and shot at. Note that the stand in the Light Woods would receive the Soft Cover modifier.

Bottom line rules for Heavy Woods: if both stands are 2" or less away from each other within the same Heavy Woods then they can see and shoot at each other. If a stand is at the edge of Heavy Woods (defined as the stand is touching the edge with part of the stand) then it can be seen and shot at. Note that the stand in the Heavy Woods would receive the Soft Cover modifier.

These rules need to spelled out a bit better in the chapter.

Again another proposal for an optional rule:
We thought to get hit in a fire fight depends on the shooting-skill of the attacker but also in the skill/combat-experience to avoid being hit by the victims. We thought that untrained and green troops don’t use every possible cover if they are in a fire-fight, but veterans and elite troops trained every possible situation in a fire-fight and know what to do if getting under fire.
So we gave for untrained and green stands a +1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them. Veterans and elite stands got a -1 modifier for hitting them or rolling FP against them.

I am adding this to the list.

Again, thank you very much for these outstanding rules !

Your welcome! Thank you for the compliment!

[h3st4by]

Thank you very much for this fast answer !

-But I have an additional question to our last question No 2. Maybe we didn’t get exactly the movement-rules:
We thought (Page 6.1) that by crossing difficult terrain one has to pay the extra-PIP-cost per action in each (!) action, so if one move both actions one has to pay them twice per activiation: one time in standart move and one time in the bonus move action?

The example with the Panther-tank on Page 6.1 seems to show that this way?

In this case, barbed wire would not be crossable for infantry if infantry must pay 4 Pips extra-cost per action?


-A correction of our last optional rule proposal :
Today after work we had a short talk about our last optional rule proposal about getting to-hit-modifiers for different combat-experienced soldiers and thought that it would maybe better to make a clear difference between untrained, trained and experienced soldiers.
So next time we play we are going to try out that this way:

The untrained stands (e.g. Volkssturm) will get a +1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them.

The trained stands (green and regular soldiers) will treated as normal.

The experienced stands (veteran and elite soldiers) will get a -1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them.

Maybe that’s better than our last proposal?

-If one is playing with these modifiers, maybe one has also to change the “points multiplier” on the “troops quality table”; we have no idea how many points we have to add or to subtract from the actually points-multiplier to get it balanced again .

Best wishes from good old Europe !

Hes


P.S.: I got the MMG-Artillery-Chapter and the MMG-FP-table, but are there the full MMG-Changes downloadable ?

[Bob Benge]

I am so sorry for such a delay in response to your post h3st4by. I have been concentrating on getting the Infantry Firepower numbers set that I neglected the site for a while... a long while...

-But I have an additional question to our last question No 2. Maybe we didn’t get exactly the movement-rules:
We thought (Page 6.1) that by crossing difficult terrain one has to pay the extra-PIP-cost per action in each (!) action, so if one move both actions one has to pay them twice per activiation: one time in standart move and one time in the bonus move action?

The example with the Panther-tank on Page 6.1 seems to show that this way?

In this case, barbed wire would not be crossable for infantry if infantry must pay 4 Pips extra-cost per action?

-

You pay the cost of the terrain for each action you spend in it as you note. However, in the case of crossing an obstacle, you would only pay for crossing the obstacle. So to cross the wire, the infantry squad would have to move up to the wire, then spend 4 pips to cross the wire, then use any pips left over to move clear of the wire. Crossing obstacles are treated differently than moving through terrain features. I guess we should detail this better in the rules.

I will look over your optional rule update and add it to my list also.

Thank you for all of you questions and suggestions!

[gregoryk]

Thank you very much for this fast answer !

-But I have an additional question to our last question No 2. Maybe we didn’t get exactly the movement-rules:
We thought (Page 6.1) that by crossing difficult terrain one has to pay the extra-PIP-cost per action in each (!) action, so if one move both actions one has to pay them twice per activiation: one time in standart move and one time in the bonus move action?

The example with the Panther-tank on Page 6.1 seems to show that this way?

In this case, barbed wire would not be crossable for infantry if infantry must pay 4 Pips extra-cost per action?


-A correction of our last optional rule proposal :
Today after work we had a short talk about our last optional rule proposal about getting to-hit-modifiers for different combat-experienced soldiers and thought that it would maybe better to make a clear difference between untrained, trained and experienced soldiers.
So next time we play we are going to try out that this way:

The untrained stands (e.g. Volkssturm) will get a +1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them.

The trained stands (green and regular soldiers) will treated as normal.

The experienced stands (veteran and elite soldiers) will get a -1 modifier if one tries to hit them or small arms FP is rolled against them.

Maybe that’s better than our last proposal?

-If one is playing with these modifiers, maybe one has also to change the “points multiplier” on the “troops quality table”; we have no idea how many points we have to add or to subtract from the actually points-multiplier to get it balanced again .

Best wishes from good old Europe !

Hes


P.S.: I got the MMG-Artillery-Chapter and the MMG-FP-table, but are there the full MMG-Changes downloadable ?

The fullMMG rules used to be available, and probably will again, if I get round to updating the files. If you like I can email the variant rules directly to you.

[gregoryk]

After Testing the game we have to say the rules are really good !

But there remained a few questions:

1.)
I already read that somewhere here in the forum but it’s actually not written in the rules : One needs a platoon-leader if one uses the command-drop-in, is this correct? If I loose a platoon-leader one stand of his former platoon has to take a “Take command” action to get the new platoon-leader?
2.)
If I use the moral-drop-in, I do a recovery-check if one stand in a unit is e.g. shaken/broken, if I go one moral-level up, counts that only for the shaken stand (so he is steady now) or counts that for the other stands too (they are now inspired)?

Only the units with morale problems are affected. Steady units in this case are not having problems so gain no benefit.

3.)
In the current rules the number 10 is missing in the bogging-check-text, it’s only said one have a 50% chance. It’s only written on the adv. Reference card.
4.)
Reactionary action: If a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand and if I pass my TQ-Check, when should I exactly act? Before the enemy stand moves? If it’s exactly 2” away from my stand? At the end of the enemy movement? When I want to act?
5.)
Reactionary action: Is it correct, that I am allowed to try a RA every time a enemy stand moves within 2” of my stand (of course only one time in a turn)? Or should it mean only if the enemy stand moves (the first time) into 2” of my stand?
6.)
If a infantry team close assaults an AVF and is pinned by the RA of the AVF; is there any penalty for the infantry attacking the AVF in close combat? I don’t think so.


Thank you

[gregoryk]

Regarding Reactions, it has been the rule before that you only get to React when a stand moves within 2 inches. If it starts within two inches, there is no reaction. The Reaction occurs when a stand "breaks," the two inch zone within two inches of another stand.