2 replies to this topic

[Aman]

After playing several games, including in-depth with one person and two sizeable fights with seven people, AND reading and RE-reading the rule several times, I've come to the conclusion that Fratricide doesn't work, as written. It also contradicts other parts of the rules and makes it a confusing multiple-exception to other rules.

There are a couple ways to handle this, I think. Below assumes that the two friendly Divisions are presently approaching each other, and have NOT Acquired one another altho they may have Detected one another.

1) The simple way. Friendly Divisions that mutually acquire one another are assumed to have signalled or otherwise identified each other, and do not fire on one another at all. However, a Division that Acquires a friendly Division, and is not Acquired in return, is assumed to have attempted identification and failed (signalled with no signal in return, etc). It fires all available Batteries that are able at the Division until they lose contact or Acquire another Division (hopefully enemy). Availabe here means any Battery that doesn't already have a target upon which it is firing, and they've the ability to split or fire Secondary / Tertiary batteries, etc.

However, I respect what the authors are trying to do with this more detailed set of rules. So came up with the following that seems a lot like what I read in the memoirs, histories, etc. Haven't tried it yet, would love suggestions / thoughts.

Fratricide. Ships may fire upon friendly ships (Re-written).
o Ships/Divisions in Formation at night are identified until out of Formation.
o Any Ships/Divisions out of Formation must be Detected / Acquired as below.
o If a Division Acquires a friendly Division, and is not Acquired in return, it might fire upon the friendly Division that has failed to Acquire them back.
 If it is presently engaging targets, it will split fire using available Batteries.
 If it did not fire at targets last turn, roll Morale. If the Division passes then they Illuminate (with either Searchlight or Starshells) and identify the Target. If they fail, they fire all Batteries upon the friendly Division.
o The Division will continue to fire until the target Division Acquires them or it Acquires a new Target (hopefully enemy!).

[Cpt M]

After playing several games, including in-depth with one person and two sizeable fights with seven people, AND reading and RE-reading the rule several times, I've come to the conclusion that Fratricide doesn't work, as written. It also contradicts other parts of the rules and makes it a confusing multiple-exception to other rules.

There are a couple ways to handle this, I think. Below assumes that the two friendly Divisions are presently approaching each other, and have NOT Acquired one another altho they may have Detected one another.

1) The simple way. Friendly Divisions that mutually acquire one another are assumed to have signalled or otherwise identified each other, and do not fire on one another at all. However, a Division that Acquires a friendly Division, and is not Acquired in return, is assumed to have attempted identification and failed (signalled with no signal in return, etc). It fires all available Batteries that are able at the Division until they lose contact or Acquire another Division (hopefully enemy). Availabe here means any Battery that doesn't already have a target upon which it is firing, and they've the ability to split or fire Secondary / Tertiary batteries, etc.

However, I respect what the authors are trying to do with this more detailed set of rules. So came up with the following that seems a lot like what I read in the memoirs, histories, etc. Haven't tried it yet, would love suggestions / thoughts.

Fratricide. Ships may fire upon friendly ships (Re-written).
o Ships/Divisions in Formation at night are identified until out of Formation.
o Any Ships/Divisions out of Formation must be Detected / Acquired as below.
o If a Division Acquires a friendly Division, and is not Acquired in return, it might fire upon the friendly Division that has failed to Acquire them back.
 If it is presently engaging targets, it will split fire using available Batteries.
 If it did not fire at targets last turn, roll Morale. If the Division passes then they Illuminate (with either Searchlight or Starshells) and identify the Target. If they fail, they fire all Batteries upon the friendly Division.
o The Division will continue to fire until the target Division Acquires them or it Acquires a new Target (hopefully enemy!).

Well, in the many games I've played (with a large number of night battles), I've found the rule to work as written. Historically, friendly fire was the result of bad (or lacking) doctrine and/or bad planning. Those navies (the IJN and RN) that took the effort to develop a night fighting doctrine and train for it, did not suffer from such incidents. Follow the guidelines in the first paragraph of the rules and friendly will not be an issue. Try to move widely separated units or make radical course changes, and you'll soon find yourself in trouble (just as the USN did historically).

Now, to the proposed changes:

"Fratricide. Ships may fire upon friendly ships (Re-written).
o Ships/Divisions in Formation at night are identified until out of Formation.
o Any Ships/Divisions out of Formation must be Detected / Acquired as below."

Ok, no problems with this (pretty much as written in the rules).

"o If a Division Acquires a friendly Division, and is not Acquired in return, it might fire upon the friendly Division that has failed to Acquire them back."

Two friendly divisions acquiring each other only means that each have acquired a formation. It does not infer that the formation's nationality has been determined and there is no implied communication between the two. Additionally, the rule states that if firing has not started, on an ODD ADR roll, the acquiring formation must fire. If EVEN, the commander may hold fire. This replicates the tendency to 'pull the trigger' on the first moment that an unknown formation is acquired. (If the acquired formation is hostile, in all cases that I've seen, fire is always opened). If fire is already going on, then the newly acquired formation friendly is automatically engaged. One thing to keep in mind above all else, ANY unknown formation is assumed hostile until proven otherwise.

" If it is presently engaging targets, it will split fire using available Batteries."

Splitting fire of an already engaged battery (especially the main battery) is, per doctrine of every navy, never condoned. Switching the full battery, engaging with the full secondary, or having another ship engage the new formation would be the correct action.

" If it did not fire at targets last turn, roll Morale. If the Division passes then they Illuminate (with either Searchlight or Starshells) and identify the Target. If they fail, they fire all Batteries upon the friendly Division."

Per the rules, the decision to fire is determined by the ADR roll result. Adding an extra roll based on Morale, seems an unnecessary step.

"o The Division will continue to fire until the target Division Acquires them or it Acquires a new Target (hopefully enemy!).c

In most all friendly fire cases, fire was checked fairly quickly, due to the target's loud protestations or the additional observation time of the target by the firer (as reflected by the one turn of fire required by the rule). If you rely on having to pass follow-up acquistion rolls, it is likely that the victim of the friendly fire would continue to be fired on for several turns, possibly without any cessation.

[Aman]

yeah but the rules as written contradict the rules.

In the ADR section, they say that Detection and Acquisition are voluntary, but if the target of the ADR is friendly, now it's mandatory? Makes no sense. The lookouts are "extra-sharp and alert" if it's a friendly division?

I say make all the ADR mandatory, so there's no difference btw friendly and enemy divisions being acquired. But now you need to figure out when they might shoot at each other. The Acquisition roll's the best way to do it. If you both succeed in ADR, then you've managed to figure out what ship(s) it is. If only one succeeds, then the other ship didn't successfuly ID itself, so it gets fired upon.

Don't even get me started about the odd/even die roll, before or after firing. Whose firing? Which firing? when and how far away? Based upon the many memoirs I've been reading, it just doesn't make sense as written. just having different criteria for friendly/ enemy divisions is the start. What about witholding fire to get a closer shot?

I like the idea, but it needs to be reworked from the ground up in some fashion.