14 replies to this topic

[Adam H. Jones III]

I have purchased the German deluxe ship log and have found an apparent contradiction between the deluxe logs and the logs supplied with the GQ 3.3 download. The ship logs supplied with the GQ 3.3 download show that the German destroyers that carry the 5.9" carry the 5.9D version of the gun and thus use the 5.9D column on the Kriegsmarine CRT table and as a result, cannot rapid fire. When I check these same destroyers on the deluxe ship logs that I purchased, the logs show that the destroyers carry the 5.9 model that is not a D version. This would allow those destroyers to use the 5.9 column on the Kriegmarine CRT and would allow rapid fire. Is this a purposeful change to the destroyers or is this an error? Thanks: Adam Jones

[W. Clark]

Coastal or someone will give you a definative answer; but I would say that allowing German DDs to rapid fire is a mistake. They only carried 120 rounds per tube and thus even if they can reach the rate of 10 rpm they can not sustain it for the six turns the rules require. They only have 12 minutes of rapid fire at 10 rpm and even if you figure only 3 minutes of fire per every 6 minute turn then they still need 60 more rounds per tube to reach the 18 minute limit. but my understanding from reading Worth and others about their rate of fire was that it never reached the rpm rate that they were hoping for and that would seem to disqualify them from rapid fire also. But, this is just my opinion based on what I wrote above and has no force as a ruling.

[simanton]

Plus, the single mounts were hand-loaded, which definitely limits rate of fire. Especially on a DD, which is not the steadiest of platforms.

[Cpt M]

I have purchased the German deluxe ship log and have found an apparent contradiction between the deluxe logs and the logs supplied with the GQ 3.3 download. The ship logs supplied with the GQ 3.3 download show that the German destroyers that carry the 5.9" carry the 5.9D version of the gun and thus use the 5.9D column on the Kriegsmarine CRT table and as a result, cannot rapid fire. When I check these same destroyers on the deluxe ship logs that I purchased, the logs show that the destroyers carry the 5.9 model that is not a D version. This would allow those destroyers to use the 5.9 column on the Kriegmarine CRT and would allow rapid fire. Is this a purposeful change to the destroyers or is this an error? Thanks: Adam Jones

The GQ 3.3 ship logs would trump the Deluxe Logs. According to more recent research, the mark of guns carried by the German DDs were not capable of rapid fire (due to several factors). (This issue was discussed among the development group for some time before a decision was made.)

[Cpt M]

Plus, the single mounts were hand-loaded, which definitely limits rate of fire. Especially on a DD, which is not the steadiest of platforms.

Actually, for smaller guns, hand loading tends to be faster. The best example of this was the US 5"/38 which could achieve some truly remarkable rates of fire (granted, for limited duration).

[W. Clark]

There are several factors imvolved in a gun's rate of fire. But, rapid fire as I understand it is rate of fire of at least 10 rpm that can be sustained for 6 turns. So, it is not enough to be able to fire 10 rpm. You must be able to sustain that rate of fire and that is where the German guns fall down.

[simanton]

Hand loading could be very fast with smaller guns, but just about everyone who tried it found 5.9"/6" with projectiles in the hundred pound range just didn't work on a DD. The French 5.5 was about the upper limit, and the super destroyers were pretty much designed for the Med.

[Angus Konstam]

I have another question... 

 

In the Ship Logs for the German "pocket battleships" , there's a "D" to the right of the hull boxes. That's where "Unit Engineering" usually goes on large vessels.

Apologies for sounding thick as syrup, but what do the "D"s stand for? These "pocket battleships" seem to be the only warships that have it. 

 

Please advise, shipmates! 

[Dave Franklin]

Angus,

 

The D stands for diesel engines.

 

As to how that ties to UE, I don't believe the rules say one way or the other (i.e. for all cases), but based on the following statement from https://www.world-wa...land_class.php3, "There were four separate motor rooms, two per shaft, the after pair driving the port shaft.", I treat the Deutschlands as having UE.

 

Dave

[Angus Konstam]

Thanks Dave. Yes, those puppies had eight two-stroke diesels, so that makes perfect sense. 

As you say, I don't think it makes any real difference to the rules, expect that it might make fires a little harder to start. 

Nasty smelly things - give me steam turbines any day! I'll just label them "Unit Engineering" on my ship cards. 

Angus 

[Dave Franklin]

As far as I can remember, the only place diesels effect play is the time to get underway.

 

Dave

[Angus Konstam]

Right. Thanks Dave. Next time I catch the Admiral Scheer in port then I'll remember that.

Of course the real advantage of diesels comes in a campaign game, and their ability to stay at sea a long time between pit stops. 

On the tabletop though, I'd prefer the speed a good steam turbine gives you...

[Cpt M]

Spot on on the advantages in a campaign.   Of course, for most of the games all of us play, the difference is really moot.

[Dave Franklin]

If you look in the AAR section, I've been running The Atlantic Campaign (which was written for Naval Thunder, but we've been using GQ3.3).  The Germans have lost Graf Spee and Scheer principally because they have run up against HMS Renown - a battlecruiser getting to do what she was actually designed to do, hunt down cruisers, instead of trying to slug it out against BBs.

 

Dave

[W. Clark]

That's it, rub it in. My cruisers were designed to be faster than anything that could sink them and stronger than anything faster than them. However, there was a catch. They were neither faster or stronger then any of the Brit or French BCs. Its like it says in the song; "I searched the world over and thought I'd found true love. But I'd found you and (spit) I was gone." Hee Haw.