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500yard Advance question


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#1 Mokman

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Posted 02 February 2022 - 05:37 PM

So my group had a bit of a disagreement over the Advance rule that we need cleared up.  The trouble came from interpreting the wording of the rule.  Is a 500 yard Advance required before every turn?  Or just when you wish to go from a turn to one side and then to the another?



#2 Dave Franklin

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Posted 03 February 2022 - 08:58 AM

Mokman,

 

In a game with all very experienced players, I sometimes allow a continuing turn to not require the "Advance" across game turns - but I require them to plot it the game turn before they are continuing their turn.  The easier way is to require the advance for every new turn of the ship - i.e. either changing direction, after going straight for awhile, or a new game turn.  Rationalize it as a way to inject a little fog of war into the vision of the 10,000 ft tall admiral.

 

Dave



#3 Phil Callcott

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Posted 03 February 2022 - 10:59 AM

Hi,

 

Is a 500 yard Advance required before every turn?

 

If you rephrase the question to "Is a 500 yard Advance required before every change of direction?"

 

Then think about what is happening in reality, the time taken to give order from bridge to helm, time for helmsman to process the order and act, time for movement of rudder, the momentum of several thousand tons of metal through water having to alter course.

 

Yes, a 500 yard Advance is required before every change of direction, from a starboard turn to straight ahead once, from starboard turn to port, twice. 

 

IMHO.

 

Regards, Phil



#4 Mokman

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Posted 03 February 2022 - 07:02 PM

I see.  That was not the conclusion we came to.  We decided that an Advance was only necessary when a switch was made between port and starboard so as to prevent wild consecutive back and forth maneuvering.  We thought to require it in between turns in the same direction too greatly limited the radius of a turn to either the tight radius of the turn gauge or the large radius of a few points of turn followed by the long 500 Advance, followed by another few points of turn.  By not requiring the Advance you can string together small point turns and small distances of forward movement to approximate any radius turn you wish.  Thoughts on that?



#5 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 05 February 2022 - 12:55 AM

G' Day Mokman,

 

The advance simulates the inertia and time required to cause a large object like a ship to change course.  Thus a change of course requires an advance (the distance the ship moves before she begins to answer her rudder) before she actually starts to turn.  Once she is turning, she can continue to turn without additional cost until she changes direction (straightens out or shifts from port to starboard or vice versa).  A good explanation is provided in the NOW HEAR THIS dialog box on page 1-2.  This also includes a sample WWII US Navy diagram of the turning circle for a Brooklyn class cruiser.  Each type of ship is different, but it is interesting how similar most warships were at this time when traveling at speed.

 

Cheers,

 

Lonnie Gill 



#6 Mokman

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Posted 05 February 2022 - 12:34 PM

Thank you for that.  I understand the real world effect that is being simulated.  What I am interested in though is the game mechanic and how the game was designed to be played on the tabletop.  So am I correct then that the design intention of the game is that whenever a ship's direction of movement changes in any way, from turning to straight, or straight to turning, that distance of straight has to be at least the 500 yard Advance?  In other words you can never go less than 500 yards straight before a maneuver?

 

The specific circumstance that caused the question was this.  I turn 2 points to port, go straight 2cm to flatten the turn a little and then go an additional 2 points to port.  Is this legal?  Or is the mechanic that the straight portion has to be 5cm at a minimum even though my direction of turn didn't change?



#7 Phil Callcott

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 03:54 PM

" I turn 2 points to port, go straight 2cm to flatten the turn a little and then go an additional 2 points to port.  Is this legal?"

 

Sadly, no.

 

First you must have previously travelled 500 yards straight ahead before you made the first 2 point turn to port, then it's another 500 yards straight ahead before the second 2 points to port.

 

Regards Phil



#8 healey36

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Posted 18 February 2022 - 02:59 PM

" I turn 2 points to port, go straight 2cm to flatten the turn a little and then go an additional 2 points to port. Is this legal?"

Sadly, no.

First you must have previously travelled 500 yards straight ahead before you made the first 2 point turn to port, then it's another 500 yards straight ahead before the second 2 points to port.

Regards Phil

Wait, what? Have I been screwing this up forever? Looking at FAI:

"- Answering the Helm Ships moving 10 Kts or more must ADVANCE 500 yards using the Ship Turn Indicator before they overcome inertia and respond to rudder changes. Once they start turning, they can turn as much as desired in the same direction without further restriction. Changing from a port turn to starboard turn or vice versa, however, requires moving 500 yards straight before beginning the turn in the opposite direction. Steaming < 10 Kts requires advancing 100 yds/two Kts before turning."

My interpretation is that after an initial 500 yards straight, you make your turn; there's no need to go 500 yards straight between each 2 points of a continuing turn (or is this a bad interpretation?).

#9 Kenny Noe

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Posted 19 February 2022 - 12:03 PM

" I turn 2 points to port, go straight 2cm to flatten the turn a little and then go an additional 2 points to port.  Is this legal?"

 

Sadly, no.

 

First you must have previously travelled 500 yards straight ahead before you made the first 2 point turn to port, then it's another 500 yards straight ahead before the second 2 points to port.

 

Regards Phil

 

Phil,   Apologies but I believe you are mistaken.   From Lonnie's post above "Once she is turning, she can continue to turn without additional cost until she changes direction (straightens out or shifts from port to starboard or vice versa)."

 

So as I read in the NOW HEAR THIS...  example,  you pay the 500yrd cost once and continue your turn (as many as you have movement for).   The inertia cost is per turn not per pointy of turn.

 

Thanks 






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