16 replies to this topic

[Dan Lewis]

I am not sure I'm fully understaning some the AP Mods Table

 

Penetration is equal to a) Offensive Value plus appropriate value from AP MODs to Kill table

 

a) AP shells = AP OV

Heat Sheels = HT OV

c) High Explosive = HE OV

d) HVAP or APCR = "Other" under offensive stats. 

 

When it comes to adding values from the AP Mods table I don't underestand the potential conflicts: 

 

What if it's APCR and the gun is 57mm or less?

if it's 57mm or less does hi and low quality ammo just not apply? Or is Hi and Low Quality only apply to 58mm or higher? 

If I'm firing Heat or HE then does that negate all other columns (<57mm, Hi quality, Lo Quality)? 

 

If this is a coumn for AP modifiers, why is there a column for small arms and when is it used? Don't undrstand why that exists. 

[Bob Benge]

Hi Dan,

 

To answer your questions specifically:

 

1. What if it's APCR and the gun is 57mm or less? Then you would apply both modifiers

 

- Then you would apply both modifiers. 

​

2. If it's 57mm or less does hi and low quality ammo just not apply? Or is Hi and Low Quality only apply to 58mm or higher?

 

- If the scenario specifies High/Low Quality Ammo then it would applied in addition to any other modifier that is applicable.

 

3. If I'm firing Heat or HE then does that negate all other columns (<57mm, Hi quality, Lo Quality)?

 

- No it doesn't

 

4. If this is a coumn for AP modifiers, why is there a column for small arms and when is it used? Don't undrstand why that exists. 

 

- Small arms do have AP rounds. ex. 50 cal. HMG or ATRs have intrinsic AP capability. This column is used when Infantry small arms is used against an unarmored/armored vehicle. Remember that there are vehicles that are unarmored (Trucks/Jeeps) and lightly armored vehicles, armored cars, halftracks, etc.) that could be disabled or destroyed by small arms. 

 

Here are the Rules Basics:

 

To simplifiy things a bit, you would apply each modifier as applicable, so if the firer was a 30mm APCR round then both the <57mm and the Special Ammo modifiers would apply. If the scenario also included that the firer had low quality ammo then that would apply also. This is all dependent upon how the Game Manager/Scenario Designer as developed the game/scenario. 

 

Bottom Line: You apply whatever modifier is applicable per the Equipment Table and the Game Manager/Scenario Designer. High or Low Quality ammo should be spelled out in the scenario being played. If High or Low Quality ammo is not specified then it isn't used.

 

High and Low quality ammo would apply as the Game Manager would assign for the game. They are no intrinsic to any gun/vehicle. Typically, Russina ammo was known to be low quality and some German ammo was known to be high quality early in the war. So the use of these is up to you or the GameManager/Scenario Designer. Again they could be additional to any other column in the modifiers table.

 

Hope this helps!

[Dan Lewis]

Ok, so does one always apply either hi-quality or low-quality? And if I choose not to recognize the low ammo quality rule then I still have to apply the modes for HI-quality ammo in addition to other mods for shell type and gun size? 

[Dan Lewis]

Hi Bob, earlier email regarding HEAT you responded to below question:

 

3. If I'm firing Heat or HE then does that negate all other columns (<57mm, Hi quality, Lo Quality)?

 

- No it doesn't

 

I might have asked the above question incorrectly. So If I'm firing HE or a HEAT round, are the cummulative adjustments for armor penetration (Chart 8.1: <57mm, Hi Quality, Lo Quality) still applicable to the HE OV and the HT OV.. 

 

I'm finding mutlilple sources that say there is little or no drop off in penetration for heat rounds. Not trying to get in an argument, just asking you to recomfirm. 

1. https://panzerworld....netration-table
2. World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery by L Bird
3. http://www.panzer-war.com/page59.html
4. https://www.thesherm...tration-tables/

 

Also regarding HE shells: According to one researcher, the various HE shells and gun combinations were rated in Kilojoules of explosive energy. Two issues come to mind, how can the "Armor Penetration" adjustments be applied to HE shells since it is not an AP shell. Second how can the amount of explosive energy of an HE shell change over distance? If I'm looking at chart 8.1 it says there are no adjustments for range if the ammo is not AP. So it seems to contradict the above. 

[Bob Benge]

Hi Dan,

 

There can be low quality and high quality rounds of any type of shell being used. Further research would indicate that WW2 Russian ammo tended to be of poor quality. See excerpt from Google Search (Guns vs. Armor site)...

 

"Yes, Russian ammunition during World War II was often substandard, with poor quality control. This could lead to unpredictable penetration. 

 

Explanation 

• BR-350 A: This 76mm APBC projectile was prone to shattering when overmatched and had a poor quality fuze.
• Ammunition quality: Soviet ammunition quality was generally poor until around 1944.
• Penetration: The quality of Russian ammunition could lead to unpredictable penetration, meaning that some ammunition would perform better than predicted and some worse."

High quality ammo is somewhat rare but identifyable.Typically in a game, High/Low quality ammo is rarely used and is based on the Game Masters scenario design. To get into the details a little bit, suppose that the a batch of HE ammo was shorted in the amount of explosive placed into the shell or the HEAT/APCR/AP warhead quality was below standards? This was a real possibilty. The research that you mention is largely based on the mathmeatics and what testing was available, which is the same research we/I used when doing the the data books. The problem with this research is that it doesn't typically address the range of quality of shells being manufactered. Ultimately, we made the playability decision to include the adjustments for people who would want to model this in their game. It is really up to the Game Master to use it if they wish. If it doesn't fit or they don't like it then, they don't have to use it.

 

As to HE rounds, well, The OV value of an HE round is calculated at a specific range and is based on a basic HE warhead. The HE OV penetration would fall off as it does not have the same energy behind it to provide the armor penetration as an AP round would. HE derives its OV value in the explosive power and not the penetration capability of armor. After all, direct fire HE is used normally for soft targets and not armored targets. Yes, HE power (HE FP) does not vary over distance, but HE OV would since the warhead is not designed to defeat armor.

 

As I think about this more, I am less convinced that the <57mm ammo column is really necessary as the stats used  for calculating penetration were based on the actually characteristics of the shell, so there probably shouldn't be any reason for the column. I am considering removing this from the chart after a meeting with the group. 

[Dan Lewis]

HI Bob, Thanks very much for your response. First off I'm an amateur - I haven't worked for Aberdeen and I wasn't in the Army. But I read a lot, I'm a history buff, a 'tank nut', and I've been wargaming for over 40 years. So don't take my comments as "I'm the expert". These are my opinions and in some cases I will make assertions when I feel it appropriate.

 

I've developed an excel file that generates Play sheets that take into account troop quality and then pre-calculate the 'to hit' at each range and the "penetration" at each range thus avoiding much of the 'in game' calculations using the Direct Fire "Range To Target" table as well as the "AP To Kill Modifiers table". It speads up and simplifies my games. Thus in writing the excel formula's I'm working real hard to understand when and when not to apply the multiple columns found in the "AP To Kill Modifiers Table". 

 

On an earlier response you commented: 

"Bottom Line: You apply whatever modifier is applicable per the Equipment Table and the Game Manager/Scenario Designer. High or Low Quality ammo should be spelled out in the scenario being played. If High or Low Quality ammo is not specified then it isn't used.

 

High and Low quality ammo would apply as the Game Manager would assign for the game. They are no intrinsic to any gun/vehicle. Typically, Russina ammo was known to be low quality and some German ammo was known to be high quality early in the war. So the use of these is up to you or the GameManager/Scenario Designer. Again they could be additional to any other column in the modifiers table."

 

Sounds to me like you are saying that we can choose to not use either quality column. Logic would dictate that Low Quality Ammunition is optional, but the default, I think, that MUST be used, on all AP shots is Hi Quality. Because if you don't use either high or low quality ammo, then a 75mm Sherman with AP will penetrate at 8 at all ranges, from short to extreme. And from everything I've read, that would be a total misrepresenation of tank vs tank combat in WWII or Modern. All AP shells degrade in penetration over range due to loss of velocity. So there HAS to be something that demonstrates the loss of penetration over distance. FYI, almost all my games are North Africa German vs Brits - so yes, I'm going to opt out of low quaity. If I'm using Italians, yes, maybe I'll use low quality ammo for them. 

 

Regarding HEAT ammo, I still beleive that there should be no range adjustments for penetration. The web site you sited earlier supports this assertion as well. They state: "Shaped charges have the same penetration capabilities regardless of range." https://amizaur.prv....mmotypes13.html

 

 

Thus I would assert that AP modifiers for range do NOT apply to HEAT or HE and further, that HEAT is not an AP Shell. 

• AP shells rely on their kinetic energy to punch through thick armor at high velocity, thus as they lose velocity they loose penetration ability. 
• I can't speak to the more modern versions of Heat. WWII HEAT shells do not rely on velocity since the nose of the shell has no real penetrating capability. They rely on explosive power that is focused into a very small area of the armor by virtue of the shape charge mechanism to defeat the armor.  Thus, the combined effect of the explosive material and the cone shaped charge, provides the same result regardless of range. While velocity may have some contribution, it would too small to change the overall result. 
• Further, Explosive power of an HE shell doesn't degrade over distance for the same reason as #2 above. The explosive value of an artillery or mortar shells doesn't vary with range. And yes, they suck against armor which means that a PZIV with a short 75 only has an HE OV of 1. But it should still be 1 vs a half track, regardless of range/velocity. And the HE shell casing isn't designed to penetrate armor as the tip of the shell casing is the fuse is designed simply to trigger the explosion and the rest of the shell casing doesn't have any of the thickness or density of an AP shell.   

 

So yes, production variance might have some impact on any type of shell, but applying a modification that models how AP penetration occurs as the shell loses velocity, just doesn't apply to HEAT or HE since they aren't dependent on velocity in how they work. 

 

So if it makes sense that High Quality is the standard for demonstrating how the Sherman 75mm penetration varies based on range/velocity. Then doesn't sound logical that on the Stuart 37mm gun I should use the high quality adjustments AND also adjustments from the >57 columns, Should be one or the other depending on gun size.

 

Same thing with 50mm APCR. I think if firing 50mm AP it should be the >57 column and if it's 50mm HVAP it should be the HVAP column. Not a combination of both. 

 

Sorry for writing such a long message. Best Regards Dan 

[Dan Lewis]

Ok, I guess we've finished that conversation. Ran two games this month of Mein Panzer and planning to run three more next month.Two of them will be at Spring Offensive Convention in North Carolina.  So far response has been very positive and all had a good time. 

[Peter M. Skaar]

Hi Dan

Glad to hear you have people that are enjoying the games you are running.

Sorry for not responding sooner as I thought that particular question about HEAT and HE had been answered already, but maybe not.  Neither HEAT or HE should have any range effects on the Kill Table.  HEAT relies on chemical effects to basically melt the armor where it hits and not on velocity which is what standard AP or APCR rely on.  HE is the same but just explodes where it hits so range does not or should not have any effect.

High quality  vs. Low quality ammo.  From how I interpret the rules, all ammo is "High" quality unless specified as Low quality.  You as the GM can make that determination prior to the start of the game.  Mostly it is Russians that have the Low quality ammo.  The table that I have does not have a designation for "Normal" quality ammo at least.
 

[Dan Lewis]

Thanks Peter, That's exactly how I have come to understand it. And I figured that you can't really skip ammo quality, it's either high or low, otherwise, like I gave in example,  Sherman hits with an AP OV of 8 regardless of the range. So Hi Quality is default and must be used (except for Ivan or maybe Tony). 

[Bob Benge]

Sorry for not reponding Dan real life and Daylight Savings time got in the way. I also didn't get  anotification like I usually do that the thread was updated.

 

My background is quite extensive also having been playing historical games for about 50 years and have been working with ODGW since the early 1990s. Still don't consider myself an expert by any stretch, but like you, I have read and researched quite a bit. 

 

You are correct about HEAT. per the rules the Non-AP Ammo line is used.

 

 

"NON-AP AMMO

This includes both direct fire HE and hollow charge (i.e. HEAT) rounds. These rounds were not affected by range and there are no modifiers applied due to range."

 

As to the High Quality/Low Quality Ammo...

 

I believe we have the Low Quality Ammo thread sewn up.

 

For High Quality Ammo, for convention games I don't use it normally unless there is something in the scenario I design that may dictate it use. I do that to simplify the convention game. The rule reads:

 

"HIGH QUALITY

Use this column for higher quality ammunition. In World War II, such ammo would have been used by Germany, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In the post-WWII period, NATO countries are considered to be using High Quality ammunition."

 

I would say that you may use it as you see fit. I can't argue not using it as Peter has recommended, it does make sense. I have played with Peter and he ran a great game. The rules are as much guidelines to follow than hard fast rules. 

 

As to <57mm column, It is hard to argue using the <57mm and Special Ammo columns and would agree that the Special Ammo should override the <57mm column. I know how the gun penetration values were calculated, I would still consider using this column for standard AP rounds if you don't default standard rounds to High Quality. Thinking about this more I don't think that it table was mean to compile the modifiers. If I remember correctly (it has been quite a while since the table was developed and we play tested it), only the appropriate column should be used.

 

Dan you have made some great observations and I believe you have this figured out so go with your gut and have fun knowing that your games and players are having a great time. I would be interested how you incorporate the excel spreadsheet into your games and reduce time. We had something similar and it seemed to be clunky and took longer. That could have been because we knew a lot of the tables and could do it in our head.  

 

Thanks! 

[Peter M. Skaar]

Thanks very much for your insights here, Bob!  We appreciated it.

Bob, to clarify ammunition quality, it is either high or low - correct?  I see no line for "normal" quality ammo in the core rules book or the Kill Chart.  The book explains everything very well in my opinion.  It seems that American, British/Commonwealth, and Germans would be the only ones to use high quality ammo in WWII games and everyone else including Minor Powers, Italy, Russia, Japan, France etc. would be low quality.  That is how I interpret it at least from the rules and your explanation.

As long as I have played Mein Panzer, I still learn learn new things.

[Dan Lewis]

I've created a spreadsheet to streamline the games when it comes to 'To-Hit' and Kill Value which I refer to in charts as Pen for penetration. 

 

Prior to the game I populate the information from the Equipment table, along with troop quality, gun size (mm), max range and ammo type. Then all the 'To-Hit' numbers and Penetration numbers are calculated automatically by Excel. 

 

I create seperate charts for each side. On the back side of the chart is the are To-Hit modifiers (minus mods for range) and the kill table.  I hand the charts out to each player. This accomplishs several things: 

 

a) Players can look up on their own the numbes for 'To Hit' and 'Kill No.' (Penetrate) as well as modifications. One side can call off their penetration if they hit and the other player calls out their armor. Players do their own Penetration minus Armor calculation and look up the Kill table before rolling. I only have to make sure the mods are being done correctly and the do the rest. 

Eliminates the need to consult the AP Mods Table. 

c) If the target is outside the guns range (e.g. 60" for <57 Gun size), then the 'To Hit' number and the penetration appear as blank.

d) Players don't have to rely on the 'umpire' to calculate all the numbers for the them speeding up the game.  

e) Players can very quickly perceive and understand thier odds of hitting at each range and what damage they are capable of. This gives them the information they need to know to where best to position their vehicles and the appropriate ranges to fire from. 

 

 

I have elmiinated OM2 from the chart keep from having a seperate chart for OM1 and OM2. Instead if they are going to fire-Move then they simply subtract -5 from their To-Hit. I simply disallowed OM3/Firing on the move. Even when there is an OM3 factor the odds of hitting are poor and only slow the game down. 

 

I also created a seperate chart for Infantry Weapons listed in the Equipment Table

 

If the vehicle weapon comes from the Small Arms table then all the To-Hit and Penetraction fields appear as "-" as they appear on the infantry charts. 

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[Dan Lewis]

[Peter M. Skaar]

The charts look good, Dan! 

Most countries or equipment in WWII do not have the OM3 capability.  The USA does have this for most of their tanks according to the Data book.  Also, the USA as well as other countries do not have a straight -5 for the OM2 values for many of their vehicles as well.  Of course you are free to adjust things as you see fit for the games you run but I will probably keep things as they are on the OM1/OM2/ and OM3 values although actually using OM3 is very rare.

Those are just my thoughts.

[Dan Lewis]

Thanks Peter

[Peter M. Skaar]

Thank you, Dan!  I don't have any problem making adjustments as we see fit to do.  One thing I have learned to do after hosting many games over the years is to make everything as clear to the players as possible to try to alleviate questions and arguments as the game moves along.

One thing I am careful to do is to make sure there are no terrain ambiguities before starting.  I make sure to simplify the terrain effects so people know beforehand what is a alley shot, hull down, soft cover, hard cover etc.  I know in the past there have been some questions so simplifying things makes sense.  This applies to other areas of the rules as well when you are able to do it.

[Bob Benge]

Hi Peter,

 

I had always considered (my interpretation anyways) the standard values in the Data Books to be normal ammo. And use the low and high values to be applied as desired.

 

Hi Dan,

 

Looks good. If it plays well for you then I love it!