9 replies to this topic

[Dan Lewis]

Hello, I'm looking at the 1956 Infantry Weapons - Anti-Tank for Israel and Egypt. In both cases for combat stats it says "see missile table", but those weapons aren't listed on the missle table. Examples: 

M40 Recoiless Rifle

M20A1B1 Super Bazooka

M9 Bazooka

 

I'm not an expert on this period but seems like the missle table in the rule book is for Missiles fired from Airplanes/Jets. Am I missing something? 

 

[Kenny Noe]

Dan,

 

Missiles come in a variety of categories.  Air to Air, Surface to Surface, etc...   Mein Panzer defines a "missile" as any projectile that has a sustaining motor to push it toward a target.  

 

The items you list are usually called "rockets" but we didn't want to have a "Rocket Table", "Missile Table",  "Recoilless Rifle Table", etc..   So all  those items are found under the "Missile Table".

 

Any questions, just send them my way.

 

Thanks

[Dan Lewis]

"So all  those items are found under the "Missile Table"."

 

 

Hi Kenny, that's my point, the rockets are NOT found under the missle tables. Nothing in missile tables for Infantry Anti-Tank weapons such as M20A1B1 Super Bazooka, or M40 Recoiless Rifle. And in the core rules, bazooka's, Piats, and Panzerschrek all have thier own data in the equipment table. 

 

 

Frankly it looks like an oversite that the equipment table says "See Missile Table". 

 

There are special rules for Missiles on 7.3 that would not be applicable to Infantry Anti-Tank Weapons. So it would be pretty confusing if the IAT weapons were actually included in the missile tables. 

[Kenny Noe]

Dan,

 

Well shyte!!  My sincere apologies for not reading and understanding your post.

 

You are correct.  The AT missile data was missing from 1956 Israel, Britain, and France tables.   I have corrected this oversight and much more (mostly formatting) nits.  I've detailed the changes in another post.  V2.1 has been uploaded to the MP Private Access Library for DL.

 

Took me a minute to understand you were referencing the Direct Fire Chapter in the Mein Panzer Core rules.  Could you clarify what in that chapter is confusing about Infantry AT weapons?  The weapons themselves are not in the Missile table but the round that they fire is in the table.   Will be glad to explain after I better understand the confusion.

 

Thanks

[Dan Lewis]

Well you've thrown me for a loop. I never before put IAT Rockets in the category of Missiles or thought I should use Missile rules for rockets. Heck, there isn't even a missle table in the core rules. On page 7.3 when it says "Note: Missiles are not affected by range (To-Hit I assume?)." 

 

Primary difference in Missiles vs Rockets are Missiles are guided. Rockets are not. And I always believed that IAT Rockets were dramatically effected by range in terms of "To -Hit". So that didn't make sense to me. 

 

I can't really find anything in the core rules that comes right out and says apply rules for Missiles when shooting IAT weapons that are rockets. There is a lot of time spent on describing missiles and even listing types of missiles, but nothing that says "Use missile rules for IAT rockets". On 9.5 under Missile Table, in spite of the meantion of rockets in the first sentence, which was just a historical reference, there is nothing that follows that says that Direct Fire for IAT weapons is handled under the process for missiles. When they mention types of missles, they don't include bazookas or panzerschreck. So I never even read the missile rules since I didn't believe they applied to anything I was doing. 

 

But yes, it makes a certain amount of sense that firing a Panzerfaust at close range with an OM1 of -5, and adding TQ of 12 and adding +10 for 2" range (or +5 for 6" range), seems like unrealistic odds to hitting tanks with rockets. 

 

So I will have to adjust my self now and learn missile rules. Thanks for getting the updates done so quickly. I've printed out the 3 pages affected and putting them in my rule book. 

[Dan Lewis]

 

Rockets are missing from Egypt missle table too but you appear to have updated that as well. 

[Kenny Noe]

Yea, I took a hard look at all the 1956 files and found I was more asleep than I thought.  <grin>   Hopefully I caught all the missing stats.

 

Thanks

[Kenny Noe]

 Heck, there isn't even a missle table in the core rules.

 

Look in Chapter 53 Mid Cold War and Chapter 58 Late Cold War sections. 

 

On page 7.3 when it says "Note: Missiles are not affected by range (To-Hit I assume?)."

 

You are correct when figuring out the To-Hit number do not use any range modifiers in the Direct Fire table. 

 

Primary difference in Missiles vs Rockets are Missiles are guided. Rockets are not. And I always believed that IAT Rockets were dramatically effected by range in terms of "To -Hit". 

 

Understand your POV, however Guided and Unguided fire control systems have been accounted for in the OM1, OM2, and OM3 numbers.  Range is not a factor as the projectile is self propelled.

[Dan Lewis]

Ok, I have adjusted my head set and will endevour to alter my brain wave to the new frequencies. From the Israeli Units: Toda Raba. From the Egyptian Units: Shukran. From the Syrian Units:

[Dan Lewis]

So I've been learing how to do the missile thing. And the just thinking this out logically, the 'To-Hit', which is based on OM# for all weapons, is representative of the fundamental accuracy of the given weapon as well other factors that are inherent to the platform which is firing. But the OM# is always effected by range, because accuracy suffers at range....further away the target the more difficult it is to hit the target, it's smaller, effected by wind, temperature, airm, etc.....except on Missiles/rockets. 

 

Using these rules If I'm firing my M40 Recoiless Rifle (or Panzerfaust) at 2" or at 30" the "To-Hit" is still the same....because it's self propelled(?). Doesn't make any sense to me. Now if you said that Range has no impact on rockets in terms of Kill#, well that would make sense, because the weapon's velocity doesn't fall off over range. Picked below off the internet regarding Panzerfaust. 

 

The Panzerfaust, a German anti-tank weapon used during World War II, had a relatively low accuracy, especially at longer ranges. While effective at close range, factors like the crude sights and the need for lead compensation made it less reliable at distances beyond a few hundred meters. 

 

Seems to me there should be a range adjustment on the "To-Hit" for IAT Rockets to account for shooting them at extremely close range vs. extended range.