6 replies to this topic

[Dan Lewis]

Hello guys, 

 

On UK. the Heavy Wapons stands for LMG and MMG have FP values greater than 24" but the "To Kill" Modifiers Table for Small Arms is N/A for both 24" and 36"

LMG 36" -2

MMG 36" 0

MMG 48" -2

 

Same issue on Heavy Weapons stands for other countries. 

 

My understanding of the rules is that the To-Hit routine applies to both Small arms as well as the larger guns. And I'm assuming that Heavy Weapons stands are still small arms. If so, this would seem to be a contradition. My excel work sheet charts identified this issue for me. 

[Kenny Noe]

You don't use the To-Hit rules when making an FP attack.  See MPC Kill Table chapter p 8.1 Attacks vs Infantry.  Also The Kill Table Example on p 8.2.  Uses a MG 34 vs infantry squad.

 

If you are attacking a vehicle with heavy weapons  then use the weapons OV value and all Direct Fire modifiers (including range apply)

[Dan Lewis]

I didn't realize that. That makes the game much easier.

 

In the example on 8.2: Small Arms vs Gun. it says "The Rifle Squad cannot affect the AT Gun itself". 

 

In the small arms table all the entries have an OV value. 

 

If unit has an OV value then why can't the rifle squad attack the AT gun and potentially damage it? (Assuming the To-Hit is successful: The OV is -2, DV=1, Range 6"-adjustment for range is 0; Roll on -3 on kill table)

 

I agree that in reality, it is likely correct to say Rifle squad can't affect the AT Gun, but strictly going by the rules, it would appear that a rifle squad could attack armored cars, halftracks and AMX13 (DV2), all with chance to kill. Again, not realistic, but where do I draw the line to say "you can or cannot do that". 

[Kenny Noe]

That statement was more for play-ability POV than a factual POV.

 

Technically a rifle squad can shoot at the gun as it has a OV value.   However, the percent chances of actually damaging the gun are very low (on the -3 Kill table row that's 15%.  Alternatively, the attacker "could" roll a 1 on the To-Hit roll giving the attacking OV a +10.  Then you'd be on the +8 Kill Table row w/ 90% to destroy the gun <grin>).  As a player I'd try an use something with an HE value against an AT gun.  When this is done you get an HE OV attack against the gun AND an HE FP attack against the crew.

 

Think about it.   An HE round hits and explodes.   There could be damage against anything in the blast radius.  OV / Direct Fire rules against the gun and FP Kill Table rules for the crew.  Same goes for an Artillery barrage if vehicle and infantry are in the blast area.

 

There are dozens of different possibilities hence the fun of the dice roll.

 

The rules were NOT written in stone and nothing says you can't "house rule" something if it makes it right for you.  However, we've played this particular version for over 20+ years and like it.   Do we have every situation or option accounted for with a steadfast rule, no.  While most of ODGW are veterans of various services and bring our collective expertise to the table, we are only human and this is only a game.

[Dan Lewis]

ok, that makes sense. I think most of the time, firing infantry against armored targets is just slowing down the game.

[Mark 1]

In the example on 8.2: Small Arms vs Gun. it says "The Rifle Squad cannot affect the AT Gun itself".
... 
I think most of the time, firing infantry against armored targets is just slowing down the game.

 

Now wait just a cotton pickin' minute, there.

 

Suggesting that infantry don't attack guns is not right. 

 

No, no, no.  The AT gun's second biggest nemesis, right after artillery, was enemy infantry.

 

But not because they broke the guns. The hard shiny bits were not particularly vulnerable to rifle fire. But the soft squishy bits very much were.

 

From Chapter 8, page 8.2:

 

Small Arms vs. Guns

Small Arms fire will have no effect
upon the gun itself but the attack will certainly
annoy the crew. Work out the results
as an attack vs infantry as outlined above.
NOTE: Depending on the direction of fire
and the particular gun being crewed, there
may be a gun shield that may provide cover.

 

So yes, a squad of guys with M1 Garands, a BAR and some hand grenades are not going to break a Pak40. But they can certainly "annoy" the crewmen around that Pak40. As in "annoy" them to death, even.

 

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

[Kenny Noe]

Yes, squads can /do attack AT Guns.   Typically they kill the crew (using the squads FP value) thus rendering the AT gun a "mission kill"  However, squads have an OV value (this accounts for rifle, grenades, etc.).  The player can attack the gun and attempt to destroy it using it's OV value.