11 replies to this topic

[Dan Lewis]

When I'm setting up a scenario, I'm unsure whether or not I should use alternate ammunition. APCR I get, that's considered rare in use due to shortages of tungsten. 

 

Using HEAT on PZIV 75L24.....not sure when was available, commonality, etc. 

 

HVAP for American tanks another example. 

HVAP or APCR for Soviet. 

 

 

Any information anyone has on how historically they may have appeared, especially in North Africa. Usually I don't use them but sometimes I wonder if perhaps the I should allow for limited ammunition for variety. 

[Mark 1]

HVAP for American tanks another example. 

...

 

Any information anyone has on how historically they may have appeared, especially in North Africa.

 

HVAP ammunition for US forces did not appear in time for any of the combat in North Africa. 

 

The first demonstration firing of HVAP to US Army troops was an air-lifted thousand rounds of 76mm HVAP used in test firings in ETO in late July of 1944. After the test firings the remains of this were then distributed to troops along with 1,000 rounds of 3-inch HVAP. That was all that was in place through September of 1944. After that it was the normal ~6-8 week shipping flow of production on 76mm and 3-inch ammo, but the quantities were miniscule.  Through the end of 1944 most US tank crews saw perhaps 5 rounds, if that, until the flow started to pick up in January of 1945, when it might have turned into 4-5 rounds per month, and by March might have been 4-5 rounds per week.  This for tanks that typically carried 70 rounds of ammo, and fired perhaps 30 or 40 rounds per week.

 

Hope that helps,

 

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

[Kenny Noe]

Dan,

 

Here's what I have for German HEAT for the 75mm L/24

 

Name            Country    Type    Date    APOV   HEATOV   HEOV    FPOV     Gun             Caliber    Penetration @ Range

Gr38 H1A/B  Germany   HEAT  1941      -              7             -2            9         L24 kwk37      75             70 @1.5k

Gr38 H1C     Germany   HEAT  1942      -              10           -2            9         L/24 kwk37     75             100 @1.5k

 

 

Note these are WWII OV numbers (don't use for post Korea say in the hills of Syria  <grin>).  As for availability, the dates provided are simply dates when the round was first produced.  Quantity and distribution would require LOTS more research

 

Hope this helps.

[Peter M. Skaar]

Hi Kenny

Is this the revised HEAT Table for the Germans?  I have been using 8 as listed in my DATA book as the HEATOV.

Thanks!

Pete

[Peter M. Skaar]

Hi Mk 1

 

That is great info on the availability of American HVAP ammo.

Thanks!

Pete

[Peter M. Skaar]

One more question I have.  How common were APCR rounds for the Germans in 1942 and 1943.

Typically, I have been giving my Panzer IIIs a couple of rounds in my games.  I heard somewhere that the ammo became increasingly scarce as the Tungsten was needed for other critical items.

[Kenny Noe]

I have been using 8 as listed in my DATA book as the HEATOV.

 

Which Databook are you referring to?

 

OK I went back and checked a few things.   First to answer my own question - You are referencing the WWII databook.  I found the HEAT OV value of 8 for the 75mm gun in the German Equipment tables.

 

So why the differences??  That is a very long story.  The author of Mein Panzer , Jon Counter wrote the rules and divined the algorithms to produce stats from historical data.  A very smart man and a friend.   His first go at MP was focused only on WWII (His fav era).  When he formed the core playtesting group we discussed the future of ODGW and MP.  There was a major problem in the playability (survivability) of Infantry in the game.  So to fix this Infantry was changed to incorporate a "Fire Power" (FP) mechanic.  This and the desire to branch out to other eras like Modern created Mein Panzer Core Rules and the era specific databooks.

 

What does this have to do with an 8 vs 7 HEAT OV?  Well back then when the databooks were written the algorithm to create OV stats was very simple.   Penetration value in mm divided by 10 (pre-Korea era) and divided by 20 (post Korea era).  However, if the penetration value was unknown then the caliber of the gun was used.  So 75mm was used as a generic value and 75 was rounded to 80 and the OV of 8 was used.

 

Why do I have 7 instead?  I am a OCD stickler (ie PITA) when it comes to representing weapon systems and their capabilities on the tabletop.  Playability is and will always be first, authenticity (realism) is a close second in my mind.  I have never used the caliber of the gun as a basis on penetration.  To this end, I have created an ammo database trying to understand and validate the stats I publish in my databooks.  I compile published data from books, games, internet forums and other sources to arrive at a penetration stat that I believe is accurate.   While I trust no single source of data, I average the total number of sources I have penetration references to get the final number.   It's not easy, has taken many years of research, and is still ongoing as more OSINT information becomes available.  Any "rules lawyer" can and will argue the final number.

 

Therefore my numbers for the German 75mm HEAT round are more specific than the original generic number originally published.  Still it's only one digit off.  This is pretty good given what Jon knew then versus what I've been able to compile.

 

I'd use the databook numbers since all ammunition was stat'd the using the same method.   Barring that I'd say use what ever number you think is right based on your knowledge and understanding.

 

 

How common were APCR rounds for the Germans in 1942 and 1943.

Typically, I have been giving my Panzer IIIs a couple of rounds in my games.  I heard somewhere that the ammo became increasingly scarce as the Tungsten was needed for other critical items.

 

I've read the same thing about the scarcity of Tungsten as the war progressed.   Although, I've not got the references handy.  maybe someone else can chime in?   Also the TOandEs@groups.io folks might have more solid references.   One can join the email group at groups.io search TOandEs.

 

 

 

 

I found one more HEAT ammo used in the 75mm L/24 gun

 

Name            Country    Type    Date    APOV   HEATOV   HEOV    FPOV     Gun             Caliber    Penetration @ Range

Gr38             Germany   HEAT  1940      -              5             -2            9         L/24 kwk37      75             50 @1.5k 

Gr38 H1A/B  Germany   HEAT  1941      -              7             -2            9         L/24 kwk37      75             70 @1.5k

Gr38 H1C     Germany   HEAT  1942      -              10           -2            9         L/24 kwk37      75             100 @1.5k

 

So you can see the Germans were ever improving the penetration effectivness as the war progressed.  After 1942 the lack of an H1D was probably due to lack resources and priority to other systems.  (This is a WAG on my part but makes sense to me)

[Peter M. Skaar]

Hi Kenny

Thanks for the info.  My WWII Data Book from 2006 or so just lists 8 as the HEAT value for the L/24 kwk37 armed tanks with no references to dates.  I will update the HEAT stats but really maybe need to order the newer version of the Data Book unless I can download it.

The newer, better number for HEAT will definitely help the Panzer IIINs in my scenario.

Here is another question: What is the H1D you are referring to?  I don't know what that stands for.

Thanks!

[Kenny Noe]

Peter,

 

Hi. The WWII Databook or any other databook doesn't reference ammunition dates.  Also my stats are NOT the official pre-Korea data stats so there isn't an update to download.   My L/24 kwk37 stats would fall under the 'house rules' category.

 

As for the H1D, this was my presumption that if the Germans continued developing the Gr38 HEAT round this would the next nomenclature for the new round.  But I've not found any references past Gr38 H1C.  Gr38 H1D probably doesn't exist per the WAG previously stated.

[Peter M. Skaar]

Thanks for all the information, Kenny.  I understand that in the Data Book the HEAT listing of 8 is the official one with no differentiation due to date from 1940 to 1942/43.  I may go ahead and use your unofficial house rule HEAT value of 10 for my upcoming game as the Germans will need all the help they can get with their Panzer IIIs vs. T-34s.

[Kenny Noe]

You're welcome.   Let us know if the HTOV helps the PzIIIs.  <grin>

[Mark 1]

As my posting on the US 76mm HVAP seems to have received a positive reaction, I thought I might add a bit more quantification to the production of those rounds.

 

The first 1,000 rounds of 76mm HVAP were completed in July, 1944.  As I mentioned, these were airlifted to ETO and demonstrated in live-firing at Chateau d'Isgney* (where Eisenhower put his HQ, and where a large depot of captured and derelict enemy armor was assembled).  No 76mm HVAP was produced in August. Regular production began in September and was shipped through normal 5-8 week supply methods.

 

The first 1,000 rounds of 3-inch HVAP were completed in August, 1944. These were also airlifted, as I understand it.  Regular production also began in September. The 76mm and 3-inch rounds used the same projectiles, and the same loading, and were intended to have the same ballistics (with minor variances, as there were even between M1A1 v. M1A2 76mm guns and M6 v. M7 3-inch guns). 

 

By the end of 1944 the number of each that had been produced was:

76mm HVAP:   13,000
3-inch HVAP:   14,000

 

For comparison, during the whole of 1944 the total M62 and M62A APC rounds produced was:
76mm APC:  3,729,000
3-inch APC: 1,489,000

 

As can be seen, the proportion of HVAP to APC was higher for 3-inch guns. But the total number of HVAP was almost the same.  I have never seen any useful information on how the 76mm HVAP was distributed --  ie: did TD crews (M18 Hellcat) get more per vehicle than tank crews (M4A1 76mm and M4A3 76mm).  But the 3-inch HVAP went only to TD units, so those units quite likely had had more HVAP than tank units.   

 

In both cases, from what I can judge based on production numbers, there should have been about 1,000 rounds of each arriving in ETO per week by January of 1945.  This is what gives me the idea of something like 4-5 rounds per tank (or TD) per month in that timeframe.  As 1945 progressed, total production of the projectiles continued to increase, and shifted towards the 76mm as 3-inch ammo production of all types scaled back, due to the 90mm M36 replacing 3-inch M10s across many TD units. This helped multiply the HVAP availability for 76mm equipped TDs and tanks.  
 

As another point of comparison, the Brits began production of 17pdr APDS in about the same timeframe (June, 1944, vs. July/August).  By the end of 1944 they had produced:

17pdr APDS:  35,000
Combined 76mm and 3-inch HVAP:  27,000

 

While the numbers are not greatly different, they do show a higher production by the Brits on APDS than by the US on HVAP.  Worth bearing in mind also is that the British timeline from factory to troops was much shorter, so more of those 35,000 rounds would have been issued by the end of the year compared to the case of US HVAP.

 

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)