4 replies to this topic

[DuxBritanniarum]

Hello everyone - not sure if this forum is still frequented but just in case, I have a few questions after my first (solo) game yesterday, where HMS Surprise (armed with long 12s as per The Far Side of the World by Patrick O'Brian) beat the odds and boarded and carried the heavier carronade frigate USS Norfolk. A very fun game and a fantastic set of rules. 

 

1) Am I missing some nuance with regards to gun crews? Take the HMS Surprise ship card as supplied, where she has 32 pounder carronades on her main deck and 18 pounders on her quarterdeck. for a 32pdr it's 1.75 crew factors per gun; for the 18pdrs it's 1.25 crew factors. Surprise has 7 crew factors, of which 2 are required to trim the sails. 4x32 pounders = 4*1.75 = 7 crew factors to man them, using the whole crew including sail trimmers, and that's before the quarterdeck guns (a further six carronades needing 2.5 more crew factors) are included. The two marine factors (half a crew factor for gunnery each) won't go far. Am I missing something? In the event I sort of handwaved the gun crew requirements as it seems odd that a ship with its full complement couldn't man a whole broadside but it would be great to understand it a bit better. (i'd actually remounted Surprise with 12-pounder long guns as per the book, so question applies for that too - if I've missed something about carronades taking fewer crew.)

 

2) Rigging repair - the rules say the following:

The “Time” row indicates the minimum number of Game Turns required to make the repair: 1 Game Turn = roll in the first Game Turn’s Repair Phase • 2 Game Turns = roll in the second Game Turn • 3 Game Turns = roll in the third Game Turn’s Repair Phase.

By "first Game Turn's Repair Phase" does that mean when doing a rigging repair you can instantly roll on the table, the same phase that you declare the repair to be necessary? Or is it the first GT after you declare the repair? 

 

3) When boarding, often one or two crew factors were pushed back but the main body of them remained. Do they need an officer to be assigned to them in the command phase to "pick them up" and charge them back into action the next blue phase? Or can they be moved by the captain during the command phase to reinforce the still-engaged fighters for free? Or are they out of the fight for ever? 

 

4) Also when boarding, if there are marines in the tops, do they get to fire volleys in each of the red, white, and blue phases, or just once per GT (given the rest of the boarding action only falls in the blue phase)? And if there are still gun crews at the guns, can they still fire at the other ship (presumably if they hit crew they can't hit those crew members formed into BPs)? 

 

Thanks in advance. I've tried to upload a photo of the engagement too.

[Kenny Noe]

Hi!  I asked Lonnie to chime in on your question.  He just got back off vacation, so give him a few days.

 

Thanks.

[Lonnie Gill]

G' Day DuxBritanniarum,

 

Apologies for the delayed reply; tons of things to take care of when you first return from a trip to the Med.  Thanks for the nice comments on Post Captain.  Here are the responses to your questions:

1.  HMS Surprise gun crews - Yes, there is a bit of a misunderstanding.  The Ship Card you are referring to is for the real HMS Surprise of the Napoleonic period.  She was armed with a full complement of carronades rather than the long 12s described in the famous Patrick O'Brien novels.  One of the characteristic of carronades was they could be operated by much smaller gun crews than traditional long guns.  They weighed far less, recoiled on traversing slides and didn't have to be manhandled by large gun crews to run them in and out for reloading, etc.  Even a 12 pounder or 18 pounder long gun would require moving a massive two or three ton iron cannon and related wooden gun truck back and forth by massive expenditure of raw muscle power, made even harder when a vessel was healed over due to the wind.  This is reflected in Post Captain on Chart 1 B and rule page 1-11.  The large crew requirements for traditional long guns are listed along the top of the Gun Crews per Gun Box table, while the small carronade requirements are listed right beneath the table and fairly easy to overlook. Nine pdr - 36 pdr carronade gun boxes only require ½ crew factor each.  Thus, the four 32 pdr carronade boxes on one side of Surprise's gun deck require 2 crew factors and the three 18 pdr carronade boxes on the foc'sle and quarterdeck require an additional 1½ crew factors, leaving enough to work the ship, assisted by her Marine factors.  

 

As you probably already know, the real Surprise was the French light frigate L'Unite taken by the British in 1796 and rated as a 6th rate 28 gun frigate armed with 24 9 pdrs on the gun deck ,eight 4pdrs and four12 pdr carronades on the quarterdeck and two 4 pdrs and two 12 pdr carronades on the foc'sle. She operated that way for several years before a major refit in 1798.  Her new captain, Edward Hamilton, wanted an all carronade armament to replace her typical 6th rate guns.  This was quite a radical departure as conventional wisdom held that while the heavy firepower of carronades would be very effective at close range, an alert opponent would soon detect it and stand off and bombard her into submission from beyond the short effective carronade range.  This would later be borne out in several battles such as the demise of Capt. David Porter's USS Essex in the War of 1812.  Somehow, Capt. Hamilton's view prevailed and HMS Surprise was rearmed with all carronades as indicated on the Ship Card provided. 

 

All this is covered in detail on pages 43 - 44 of The Frigate Surprise by Geoff Hunt (the artist who painted the beautiful covers for the Patrick O'Brian novels) and well known naval historian of the Georgian Navy, Brian Lavery.   This book describes the life and times of the real HMS Surprise in depth and contrasts her with O'Brian's fictional Surprise along with lot's of great art work and other details.  Well worth getting a copy if you've got a soft spot for Surprise from O'Brian's great series  - as I do.  The real HMS Surprise had an active but typical career during the Napoleonic Wars, but fortunately never had to test her all carronade armament theory in a sea fight.  Captain Hamilton and her crew earned their place in history when they cut out the ex british frigate Hermione from a heavily defended harbor in Venezuela and re-took her from the Spanish in 1799.  The crew of HMS Hermione had previously brutally mutineed and turned her over to the Spanish.  The Hermione mutiny was a famous and shocking event, known throughout the Royal Navy.  Surprise's cutting out action went a long way to erasing a painful episode in British naval history. 

 

HMS Surprise thus provides many interesting opportunities.  You can sail her into action in any of three ways:  with her original light 6th rate armament,  her refitted all carronade armament or Patrick O'Brian's fictional armament. 

 

2. Repair timing -  Rule Section 8 indicates that you have to assign crew factors to repairs in the Rigging & Repair Phase to work repairs in follow-on Game Turns.  Thus, you can assign crew factors in the Game Turn the damage is incurred and attempt to repair rigging damage in the next Game Turn.  In the case of a two Game Turn type of damage, you can roll to complete repairs in the Rigging & Repair Phase at the end of the second Game Turn of repair work, and so on for three Game Turn repairs, etc.

 

3. Forced Back Crew Factors -  Crew factors forced back in a melee can be used to reinforce an existing BP in the next Blue Phase.  They do not need to have an officer assigned to make a reinforcing move.  An officer would be required if forming a new BP and attempting to make a new attack.

 

4. Marine Volleys - The Marine factors simulate both files drawn up on the upper deck and those in the fighting tops. No distinction is made between the Marines in the tops and those on deck.  In fact, most Marines were deployed on the upper deck as space in the fighting tops was quite limited.  Also note, as provided in Section 9.2 on page 1 - 20, only one Marine factor can be assigned to fire volleys from the aft deck area and a second Marine factor assigned to fire volleys from the foc'sle in a Game Turn.  A third Marine or Troop factor can be assigned to fire volleys from the waist deck area if available.  Additional Marine or Troop factors can only volley when used to replace casualties due to the constricted deck space.  A Marine factor can fire a volley in each Red, White and Blue tactical Phase, when in musket range, but can only fire before or as a boarding attempt is made.  Thereafter, they are involved in the ensuing melee or can't fire into the disputed deck area as friend and foe are too intermingled.  Gun crews can continue to serve their guns and fire until a melee occurs in their deck area, but they are also subject to hits from guns and musket volleys - as are factors formed into BPs.

 

Hopefully this helps clarify some of the nuances and HMS Surprise will find more chances to test her metal.

 

LONNIE

 

 

[DuxBritanniarum]

Hi Lonnie,

 

Thanks very much for the comprehensive reply and apologies in turn for my delay in replying. That's all extremely helpful and thank you for pointing out where I'd missed stuff - especially the different crew factor requirements for carronades versus long guns. I suppose if I wish to persist in giving Surprise the armament she had under Captain Aubrey, I just need to slightly augment her crew to suit, as no doubt the good captain did too. Everything else makes perfect sense too, especially on the marines.

 

I next plan to ensnare a fellow O'Brian fan and try to play out the battle of Zambra Bay from the end of Treason's Harbour (though I rather expect the British to go down badly, as on paper the French have a very heavy advantage).  

[Lieste]

1.  HMS Surprise gun crews - Yes, there is a bit of a misunderstanding.  The Ship Card you are referring to is for the real HMS Surprise of the Napoleonic period.  She was armed with a full complement of carronades rather than the long 12s described in the famous Patrick O'Brien novels.  One of the characteristic of carronades was they could be operated by much smaller gun crews than traditional long guns.  They weighed far less, recoiled on traversing slides and didn't have to be manhandled by large gun crews to run them in and out for reloading, etc.  Even a 12 pounder or 18 pounder long gun would require moving a massive two or three ton iron cannon and related wooden gun truck back and forth by massive expenditure of raw muscle power, made even harder when a vessel was healed over due to the wind.  This is reflected in Post Captain on Chart 1 B and rule page 1-11.  The large crew requirements for traditional long guns are listed along the top of the Gun Crews per Gun Box table, while the small carronade requirements are listed right beneath the table and fairly easy to overlook. Nine pdr - 36 pdr carronade gun boxes only require ½ crew factor each.  Thus, the four 32 pdr carronade boxes on one side of Surprise's gun deck require 2 crew factors and the three 18 pdr carronade boxes on the foc'sle and quarterdeck require an additional 1½ crew factors, leaving enough to work the ship, assisted by her Marine factors.  

 

As you probably already know, the real Surprise was the French light frigate L'Unite taken by the British in 1796 and rated as a 6th rate 28 gun frigate armed with 24 9 pdrs on the gun deck ,eight 4pdrs and four12 pdr carronades on the quarterdeck and two 4 pdrs and two 12 pdr carronades on the foc'sle. She operated that way for several years before a major refit in 1798.  Her new captain, Edward Hamilton, wanted an all carronade armament to replace her typical 6th rate guns.  This was quite a radical departure as conventional wisdom held that while the heavy firepower of carronades would be very effective at close range, an alert opponent would soon detect it and stand off and bombard her into submission from beyond the short effective carronade range.  This would later be borne out in several battles such as the demise of Capt. David Porter's USS Essex in the War of 1812.  Somehow, Capt. Hamilton's view prevailed and HMS Surprise was rearmed with all carronades as indicated on the Ship Card provided. 

 

 

Hopefully this helps clarify some of the nuances and HMS Surprise will find more chances to test her metal.

 

LONNIE

I don't believe this is actually the case.

She was taken in 1796 and sailed from the Mediterranean to the West Indies, still armed with French canon de 8 and canon de 4.

On arrival in England she was taken in hand at Plymouth for repair and conversion to British requirements when her establishment was to be 24 9pdr, 10 4 pdr guns, and 6 12pdr carronades, but Cpt Hamilton engaged in correspondence with Admiralty and Ordnance, and persuaded them to complete her as a carronade armed frigate in the pattern of a sloop of war rather than a gun frigate, receiving 24 32pdr carronades, 10 18pdr carronades, and while not included in the stated armament an AO requiring 'at least one pair guns for chase' crossed before work was very advanced so there should be 1 pair 6pdr judging by other carronade armed sloops. She ends up a little heavier than a 'Banterer' class sloop and for identical reasons - one more pair of carronades in the battery and one more pair on the gaillards.

She was thus either armed as a French gun armed ship, or a British carronade armed frigate... but not actually ever according to the establishment initially proposed.

While carronades are less accurate in chase than guns are (higher elevations needed resulting in deviation in line when rolling), their larger shot combines with a steeper line of metal and a stepped/notched dispart to give a longer range by line of metal than the 'low' Armstrong Frederick patterns of heavy guns (and about the same as the slightly taller Blomefield guns or French guns if using similar powder), and an accuracy and penetration and frontal area which are lower, greater and greater than their 'companion' guns - a 'rough' prediction of firepower at the late C18th/earlyC19th is that a carronade hits as often/hard as a gun of half the shot weight, while using about the same total weight on board as the 'companion gun' (e.g. 9pdr with 32pdr - but with less weight on deck (and more in the shot locker)). The 18pdr is very slightly better at threshold penetration at range than a 32pdr carronade, and is slightly less of a threat at very short ranges, but slightly stronger at line of metal distances against thick scantlings. There is no equality between a 32pdr carronade and a 9 or 12pdr gun, which is why the 1798 establishment is quite keen on displacing all suitable QD and FC guns with carronades - they are an absolute improvement in firepower, especially at range against the hull.

After the implementation of tangent sights for all guns and carronades and the move to 'all big gun' 32pdr uniform calibre in the 1830s the carronade is very much the weakest of all of the 32pdrs and it is largely in this context that much of the denigration of the carronade, 'past and present' occurs - to force the replacement of the 17cwt carronade with the new 25cwt 'carronade' gun which is a substantial improvement in effectiveness with the same high weight efficiency.

Essex was 'taken apart from her quarter' in her 1813 engagement where 'not a carronade could be brought to bear' Cpt Porter having failed to ensure springs were taken on her anchor before she was engaged. His choice of word was 'reach' but the stated ranges (initially below, later at roughly the line of metal of an 18pdr gun) and Msm Farragut's use of 'bear' as well as the significant fraction of Phoebe's armament (28 18pdr, 4 9pdr guns, 16 32pdr carronades) and the whole of Cherub's (16 32pdr carronades, 8 18pdr carronades, 2 6 pdr chase guns) which are restricted to the same carronade performance or less... are very much more suggestive of tactical blunders rather than a shortness of range.