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Question about Troop Quality Clarification for ROF


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#1 Tim Bowman

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 04:40 PM

I just downloaded the offical revised rules and was reading through them to note any major changes. I came across a point that I would like to get some clarification on. On page 7.5 where it discusses the ROF and Troop Quality it states "Troop Quality tables for each nationality there is a Bonus roll for Veteran and Elite..."Where it refers to Bonus roll, does this mean bonus shot to rof ? I am assuming that this is the case. At which point it says the bonus roll (or shot) is modified by the 1/2 or 3 bonus modifier. So this is saying that if I have a ROF of 2 and troop quality of Veteran for U.S. (which gives a bonus rof of 1), the first two shots would be handled normal but the troop quality rate of for bonus shot would be modified by 1/2 or -3 which ever is worse correct?

#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 06:12 AM

Where it refers to Bonus roll, does this mean bonus shot to rof ?

Yes it does. ;)

So this is saying that if I have a ROF of 2 and troop quality of Veteran for U.S. (which gives a bonus rof of 1), the first two shots would be handled normal but the troop quality rate of for bonus shot would be modified by 1/2 or -3 which ever is worse correct?

Right again. ;)

#3 gregoryk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 11:26 AM

stigandr,You read the rules perfectly. I can add the -3 modifier applies to Fire Power, since it is possible to shoot on a negative value. The Direct Fire To-Hit roll is always halved. For example, a shot at a tank with a modified chance To-Hit of '2' would have a Bonus roll of '1,' since you cannot hit on a '0' or less chance. A machine gun firing at an infantry stand with a modified Fire Power of '2' would have a Bonus roll of '-1.'We changed the terminology for the Bonus roll so that everyone would understand that Veteran and Elite troops always get the extra roll, even in circumstances were ROF is reduced, like Overwatch or Reaction fire.Thanks again for your kind words about the extended example of play. "Trotsky" worked hard on that — it is an excellent presentation of how the game flows.Cheers,Gregory

#4 Tim Bowman

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 12:07 PM

OK now that I have the clarification, of the wording, I have a question as to why?I am not sure I understand why, as a veteran or elite troop, would they have a penalizng modifier like the 1/2 or -3 added to there roll for a Q bonus roll?This seems to penalize for being better troops. In discussing this with the group I play with they also agree that this seems to punish veteran and elite troops. The Example senario is that we have after modified rolls, (but prior to 1/2 or -3) a roll of 8. Normally 8 is a doable roll, however with the modifier of 1/2 applied it becomes a 4. Each shot rolled always risks a miss fire or gun jam that could potentially force at least a missed opportunity to fire with a miss fire roll (worse case situation is a round blows up taking out unit). With a 4 the risk and ammo becomes almost not worth it.Based on this, can you try to help provide a better understanding as to why this penalty would be applied or the reasoning behind it?

#5 gregoryk

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Posted 28 February 2007 - 03:40 PM

stigandr wrote:

OK now that I have the clarification, of the wording, I have a question as to why?I am not sure I understand why, as a veteran or elite troop, would they have a penalizng modifier like the 1/2 or -3 added to there roll for a Q bonus roll?This seems to penalize for being better troops. In discussing this with the group I play with they also agree that this seems to punish veteran and elite troops. The Example senario is that we have after modified rolls, (but prior to 1/2 or -3) a roll of 8. Normally 8 is a doable roll, however with the modifier of 1/2 applied it becomes a 4. Each shot rolled always risks a miss fire or gun jam that could potentially force at least a missed opportunity to fire with a miss fire roll (worse case situation is a round blows up taking out unit). With a 4 the risk and ammo becomes almost not worth it.Based on this, can you try to help provide a better understanding as to why this penalty would be applied or the reasoning behind it?

There is no penalty for better TQ, only a benefit. For example, a Regular, Veteran, and Elite tank with a normal ROF=1 all fire at a target, and let's assume they all have a target number of '10' [actually it would be an '11' for Elite, since they are one more than Veteran TQ, but for this example I will use the same number]:[ul][li]Regular hits on a '10' or less — a p=.50 chance.[/li][li]Veteran hits on a '10' or less, then takes its Bonus roll and can hit on a '5' or less — a p=.625 chance of at least one hit[/li][li]Elite hits on a '10' or less, can take its first Bonus roll and hit on a '5' or less, and then take its second Bonus roll and hit on a '5' or less — a p=.719 chance of getting at least one hit. Additionally, the Elite could switch targets using its first Bonus roll, and engage a different target with its second Bonus roll, albeit using the ½ modifier to its Target Number.[/li][/ul]There is always the chance of rolling the dreaded '20' when shooting, but that is the risk one takes. You certainly do not have to shoot the Bonus rolls.I hope this clarifies the procedure.Cheers,Gregory

#6 ferguson glenn

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 07:33 PM

So is this right then? EXAMPLE(1 PZIII L Vetran Hull Down -3 is in overwatch when a firefly and 3 M5 stuarts(used Evasive Movement)all Vetran and all or 12 inches away. P-3 fires at firefly with overwatch and kills it. The stuarts activate and move full 10 inches to 2 inches (Intending to OM3 fire on the move the P-3) the P-3 uses reaction fire and kills a stew his to hit is 12-5(pg.5.4)-1+10=16 / or is it 12-1+10=21 halved to 10(pg7.2)Then the P-3 activates and shoots one stew and kills it with its 1st shot(RoF2+1 for vet =3) minus 1 shot to change target and uses (TQ bonus RoF)to shoot another stew To hit = 12+10-1=21(bonus TQ RoF adjsut) for a to hit of 10.Page 7.2 reads differently then page 5.4 on reaction fire. Also the New Chart says nothing about the TQ fire adjustment. Please clarify this.

#7 Bob Benge

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 10:42 AM

Page 7.2 reads differently then page 5.4 on reaction fire. Also the New Chart says nothing about the TQ fire adjustment. Please clarify this.

We missed this one... Page 5.4; "In addition, all Reactionary Fire Actions receive a -5 modifier to their To-Hit Value."is not correct and should read;"In addition, all Reactionary Fire Actions receive a ½ or - 3* modifier (*whichever is worse.) to their To-Hit Value."**Note to Jon this is an errata we need to post.**

The stuarts activate and move full 10 inches to 2 inches (Intending to OM3 fire on the move the P-3) the P-3 uses reaction fire and kills a stew his to hit is 12-5(pg.5.4)-1+10=16 / or is it 12-1+10=21 halved to 10(pg7.2)

Neither. :)It is: 12 TQ -6 (1/2 or -3 whichever is worse, 1/2 of 12, -6 being worse than -3) for Reactionary Fire -1 for OM1 +10 for 2" Range. Thus; 12-6-1+10=15. Remember that Reactionary Fire is a modifier on the Direct Fire Modifiers table and is taken in order. Whereas the TQ ROF Bonus is derived from the initial to-hit number. So in your final part of the example for my clarification:

Then the P-3 activates and shoots one stew and kills it with its 1st shot(RoF2+1 for vet =3) minus 1 shot to change target and uses (TQ bonus RoF)to shoot another stew To hit = 12+10-1=21(bonus TQ RoF adjsut) for a to hit of 10.

The activated PZ III shoots at the first Stewert with a 12 TQ -1 for OM1 +10 for 2" Range, yielding a 12-1+10=21 a 21 to-hit (don't roll a '20' :) ). The PzIII utilizing 1 ROF to change targets and its final ROF (the Veteran ROF Bonus) to shoot at another Stewert would be 12 TQ -1 for OM1 +10 for 2" Range -10 (-1/2 of 21, -10 being worse than -3) , yielding a 12-1+10-10 a 11 to-hit. Again the Bonus Roll is a modifier not just simply a 1/2 to the final to-hit number. Also, as Gregory mentions earlier,

"...a shot at a tank with a modified chance To-Hit of '2' would have a Bonus roll of '1,' since you cannot hit on a '0' or less chance."

a vehicle cannot be reduced below a to-hit number of 1 because of this modifier to the bonus shot(s)Hope this helps clarify things a bit. :)

#8 ferguson glenn

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 05:27 PM

Thats nice sort off I can hit with a 15 doing reactionary fire and only a 11 to hit for a bonus RoF for TQ.

#9 ferguson glenn

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:44 PM

Now for the last surviveing M5 stuart's revenge. TQ=11-12(OM3)+10(range)=9 then 11 for Rof 2. The stuarts moved to eliminate the Open Hull Down mod of the P-3 so zero mod for the P-3, and if I have this right now the TQ bonus RoF =6. All shots into the P-3's side armor. NASTY GYRO STABILISER'S

#10 Bob Benge

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 06:38 AM

Thats nice sort off I can hit with a 15 doing reactionary fire and only a 11 to hit for a bonus RoF for TQ.

You don't like the rule? :)Well, you are getting a BONUS shot that the average and below average joe doesn't get. It also can allow the Veteran with a ROF of 2 or the Elite with a ROF of 1 to actually change targets and get that second shot on another target. Also, if the Veteran or Elite shots are at the same target, ie not switching targets then you will get a consecutive shot at same target modifier. Finally, a bonus die roll does add to the probability of getting a hit even with the reduced chance, as Gregory, the Probability Guru, has mentioned. Seems that there are many up sides to the BONUS roll to the one down side. In the end, the rule was put in place because of a playability issue that addressed the overly high kill rate of the older unmodiifed TQ ROF system. If you really don't like the rule though, you can House Rule it out of your games. We want you to enjoy the game; it is yours. :)

Now for the last surviveing M5 stuart's revenge. TQ=11-12(OM3)+10(range)=9 then 11 for Rof 2. The stuarts moved to eliminate the Open Hull Down mod of the P-3 so zero mod for the P-3, and if I have this right now the TQ bonus RoF =6. All shots into the P-3's side armor. NASTY GYRO STABILISER'S

I noticed in the earlier examples that I/we didn't take into effect the -5 Evasive Moveemnt Modifier for the Stuarts. Doh! :blush: I would say that the PZ IIIL tank commander deserves an Iron Cross for taking out 1 Firefly and 2 Stuarts before losing his own tank! ;)

#11 gregoryk

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 10:11 AM

Tread Head wrote:

Thats nice sort off I can hit with a 15 doing reactionary fire and only a 11 to hit for a bonus RoF for TQ.

Bob,Can you cite the rule for Reaction fire and the modifiers? I ask this because in our playtest group we always did the -½ modifier last, no matter whether it was Troop Quality, Reaction, Partial hit on indirect fire, etc.Gregory

#12 gregoryk

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 10:15 AM

bbenge wrote:

Then the P-3 activates and shoots one stew and kills it with its 1st shot(RoF2+1 for vet =3) minus 1 shot to change target and uses (TQ bonus RoF)to shoot another stew To hit = 12+10-1=21(bonus TQ RoF adjsut) for a to hit of 10.

The activated PZ III shoots at the first Stewert with a 12 TQ -1 for OM1 +10 for 2" Range, yielding a 12-1+10=21 a 21 to-hit (don't roll a '20' :) ). The PzIII utilizing 1 ROF to change targets and its final ROF (the Veteran ROF Bonus) to shoot at another Stewert would be 12 TQ -1 for OM1 +10 for 2" Range -10 (-1/2 of 21, -10 being worse than -3) , yielding a 12-1+10-10 a 11 to-hit. Again the Bonus Roll is a modifier not just simply a 1/2 to the final to-hit number.

One minor clarification here — you drop fractions, so ½ of '21' is '10.'Gregory

#13 ferguson glenn

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 04:48 PM

The stuarts only had the evasive movement bonus before they moved 10 inches into 2 inch range of the P-3. I did that so it was unlikely that the P-3 would have fired on any of the stews also why I added in a firefly. The M5 Stew is a 5/7 and to go from 12 to 2 inches had to give up evasive mod. for the extra +5 to hit at 2 inch range. And yes I dont like the way the rule was construted to reduce the hit chances of vetran and elite troops, and also feel that the reaction shot should be the worst shot of all from how it is worded.If it were to have the total value haved like the TQ bonus RoF does then it would be more in line with the "takeing a shot from the hip". It may have been more simple to just raise the valuse of vetran and elite TQ's by 1 or 2 and just eliminate bonus TQ shots all together, since there are not an extra shots taken any way. That way you give the higher percentage to hit but no greater chance of a 20 or the greater kill numbers? You could even have given a +1 RoF TQ for elites.:unsure:

#14 gregoryk

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 05:22 PM

Tread Head wrote:

And yes I dont like the way the rule was construted to reduce the hit chances of vetran and elite troops, and also feel that the reaction shot should be the worst shot of all from how it is worded.If it were to have the total value haved like the TQ bonus RoF does then it would be more in line with the "takeing a shot from the hip". It may have been more simple to just raise the valuse of vetran and elite TQ's by 1 or 2 and just eliminate bonus TQ shots all together, since there are not an extra shots taken any way. That way you give the higher percentage to hit but no greater chance of a 20 or the greater kill numbers? You could even have given a +1 RoF TQ for elites.:unsure:

We tried various methods of accounting for the increase in skill, but did not get the desired additional effect which is common for better troops, i.e., they are able to more quickly target and kill the enemy. The TQ bonus allows for just that effect, while increasing the chance to knock out one target proportionally. Simply increasing the ROF by '1' would significantly skew the hit percentage upwards; that is why we halve the Bonus roll.It is important to remember that one roll of the die does not equate to one firing of a weapon, due to the nominal six-minute turn. [A weapon with an equipment table ROF=1 has an actual rate of fire of 1-7 shots per minute]. Also, when better troops obtain a kill they are more likely to be able to acquire and hit another target. The most famous and most extreme example of this was Michael Wittman shooting up a British transport convoy single-handedly from his Tiger within the space of a few minutes. However, Veteran German tankers in all theatres of the ETO routinely racked up more than one knocked-out tank in a six-minute time frame, as did other nations' tankers.In years of gaming with Mein Panzer, Bonus rolls have worked well to model the better chance that superior troops have to engage the enemy, while not overdoing the percentage increase to hit one target.Cheers,GregoryP.S. I still do not understand how you think "the rule was construted to reduce the hit chances of vetran and elite troops,..."




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