4 replies to this topic

[Dave Franklin]

A few thoughts/questions regarding the first night of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal:1. Which US ships had SG radar?Based on the RAT, of the cruisers, Helena and Juneau have SG radar.Volume V of Morison’s History of the USN in WWII states: “Unfortunately, the three cruisers and two destroyers that mounted the latest search radar were not placed in lead positions; anti-aircraft cruiser Atlanta with inferior radar steamed ahead of flagship San Francisco…” and later “On board San Francisco, Admiral Callaghan, blind for want of adequate radar, was continually and urgently calling on his seeing-eye dogs, Helena and O’Bannon, for vital ranges, bearings, courses and composition.” and still later “Destroyer Fletcher, despite her station in the very rear of the column, had excellent information from a superior search radar.”The only other cruiser is Portland, which a) the RAT says didn’t get SG radar until May ’43, and b) isn’t specifically mentioned in Morison as having SG or “superior” radar.It seems clear that O’Bannon and Fletcher are the two DDs with SG radar, though on one website (http://www.microwork...adalcanal_1.htm), it says “Callaghan failed to put a ship with the new, powerful, SG radar anywhere near the lead, the first vessel so equipped being Helena -- at eighth position in line!” Note that O’Bannon was 4th in line.My thought is to disregard this website. O’Bannon and Fletcher were the two newest DDs, and it would make sense they are the two with SG radar, but what about the cruisers? Does Portland have SG radar, or were there really only two cruisers so equipped?2. What would be the effect, in GQ3 terms, of the high capacity Type 3 bombardment shells for Kirishima and Hiei against ships?One website (http://www.historyne..._2/3026026.html) states: “…special 14-inch shells loaded in the magazines of Hiei and Kirishima--Type 3 shells, originally designed for anti-aircraft work. Each shell's casing had a bursting charge that would scatter 470 individual incendiary submunitions across an area. These could shatter the parked planes on Henderson Field, but were useless against steel warships.”My thought for the scenario would be for the first two turns of fire from Hiei and Kirishima, after acquisition, to be with these shells. Alternately, they could hold fire for two turns while the crews switched to AP (the same website says “On Hiei, a shaken Abe, his voice faltering, ordered his men to switch from Type 3 shells to armor-piercing ordnance. The gunners tore Type 3 shells out of the breeches and hurled them out onto the decks while crews in the magazines scrambled to load armor-piercing shot.”). I was also thinking, using the old GQ1/2 paradigm of 18 total turns of fire, of saying that 10 of them are allocated for bombardment, leaving only 8 turns of AP fire available.So, would the HC shells really be “useless”? Would they at least still penetrate DDs? CL armor? And what would the equivalent hits be?

[Cpt M]

According to an examination of photos taken before and after the battle, Portland is not equiped with SG radar. The surface search radar set onboard during November 1942 was SC radar. A photo taken during her May 1943 refit confirms that SG radar was installed during the refit.San Francisco did not recieve her first SG set until February 1943, while her first SC set was installed in March 1942.The only SG equipped ships at First Guadacanal would have been Fletcher, O'Bannon and Helena. Juneau had a SC set but, according to photos taken prior to her deployment to the SW Pacific, no SG set.

[Jim O'Neil]

OK... I don't know what a RAT is, but would like the reference... I am tracking radar installs as best i can, and that sounds very interesting.My understanding is that ALL Fletcher Class DDs have SG from the factory.So O'Bannon and Fletcher should both have it, as does Helena. The Japanese Type 3 Shell was an incendiary shell ... it's effect against USS Portland or any other ship would be to set fire to any flamables (Life rafts, exposed wood, rope, paint or whatever). It might not be a huge fire, but it would probably make the ship easier to pick out of the darkness. It would also burn / injure exposed crew.I would be a bit picky and point out that there is no AP Shot involved. All of the AP is shell (has a bursting charge). I would think the Bombardment rule is reasonable, given the mission, if you want to dig to that level of detail.Thanks,Note : I tried to reply last night but the server died.

[Cpt M]

Bravo6-RAT - Radar Availability Table (it's in the download library. A most unfortunate acronym! Kind of like CinCUS...)

[Jim O'Neil]

Oh, OK, not something 'official'... I have been trying the Naval History site and other such official sites as well as the well known books.Here is what I have right now:Radar and it's first installations on US ShipsA Radar installation plan of July 1941 shows plans for one large and 1 small radar aboard all CA and one small aboard all CL. (1). Numbers in parentheses are the source of the information.Air Search20 CXAM- as of December 1941(2) plus the original XAF set (3) NOT in Order of install, dates installed shown where known. CXAM-1 14 Sets from Late 1941 (4)1. New York (XAF prototype)2. Pensacola July -Aug 1940 (4)3. Northhampton July -Aug 1940 (4)4. Chester July -Aug 1940 (4)5. Chicago July -Aug 1940 (4)6. Augusta (CXAM-1)7. Cincinnati (CXAM-1 (4))8. Lexington (3) (CXAM-1 (4))9. Saratoga (3) (CXAM-1 (4))10. Ranger (3) (CXAM-1 (4))11. Enterprise (3) (CXAM-1 (4))12. Yorktown (3) July -Aug 1940 (4)13. Hornet (3) (Received California's set after Pearl Harbor (4))14. Wasp (3) (CXAM-1 (4))15. California- July -Aug 1940 (4)16. Texas (CXAM-1 (4))17. Pennsylvanis (CXAM-1 (4))18. West Virginia (CXAM-1 (4) transferred to another ship after PH?)19. North Carolina (CXAM-1 (4))20. Washington (CXAM-1 (4))21. Curtiss (CXAM-1 (4))22. Albemarle (CXAM-1 (4))SC - Available September 1941 ? 10 sets made?1. USS Dunlap (photo as of 31 Jan ’42)2. USS Benham (Photo at Coral Sea)SC-1 - From January, 1942 (NOTE the book (1) says SK, but it has to be SC, as some of these ships were sunk before SK was available.)1. Salt Lake City2. Louisville3. New Orleans4. Portland5. Astoria6. Indianapolis7. Minneapolis8. Tuscaloosa9. San Francisco10. Quincy11. Vincennes12. Wichita13. Omaha14. Milwaukee15. Raleigh16. Detroit17. Richmond18. Concord19. Trenton20. Marblehead (after ABDA Service)21. Memphis22. Brooklyn23. Philadelphia24. Savannah25. Nashville26. Phoenix27. Boise (after ABDA Service)28. Honolulu29. St. Louis30. Helena31. Atlanta32. Juneau33. San Diego34. San Juan35. Cleveland36. ColumbiaSurface SearchSG-1. Augusta (on 5 April 1942) -1st installation, for FDRs trip to Argentia2. Saratoga3. San Juan4. Boise (July 1942 at pearl harbor)5. HelenaPortland, which didn’t get SG radar until May ’43 -your comment-Fire ControlFA/ Mk-1 - (10 made ?) Mk-1 could be readily upgraded to Mk-3 by changing out internal components) Installed in WHICHITA and 9 Light Cruisers (Brooklyn & St Louis Classes)1. Wichita (June 1941)2. Phoenix3. Boise (set # 7, Oct 1941 ; installed at Pearl Harbor)4. Honolulu ( Mk-3 as of 30 Jan 1942 (1))5. St. Louis6. HelenaFC/ Mk-3 - From October 1941 – 10 sets produced by Dec 19411.USS Philadelphia, October 19412. USS Clark (a Porter Class DD with low angle guns; the radar is a “Pig Trough” Mk-3, Photo dated 6 Dec ‘41)3. Honolulu ( Mk-3 as of 30 Jan 1942 (1))FD/ Mk-4 – Only USS Roe had a set on 7 Dec 1941.1. USS Roe ( Test DD in September 1941 (4) (5))2. USS Washington (Production Sets #1,2,3,&5 Dec 1941 (5)3. USS Hornet (in Photo’s of the Doolittle raid)(1) Freidman, N; US Cruisers(2) Price, A; US Electronic Warfare(3) Brown, L ; A Radar History of WW II(4) Freidman, N; Naval Radar(5) Kelly, M ; Radar Systems & Components