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Secondary batteries in GQIII A1


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#1 Martin Jerred

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 01:53 PM

I note that several seconday batteries - in particular the 3" secondary mounts on RN and RNN DDs are outlined in red on the ship logs.Look though I might I've been unable to find any reason for this in the Changes document.Any idea why the are red?What special measures does one take with these?cheersZippee

#2 Robert Henderson

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 03:10 PM

I believe that means they are totally unarmoured.

#3 Martin Jerred

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 04:49 PM

But the entire DD is totally unarmoured as far as the rules are concerned - everything penetrates...Zippee

#4 Cpt M

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 05:08 PM

"I note that several seconday batteries - in particular the 3" secondary mounts on RN and RNN DDs are outlined in red on the ship logs.Look though I might I've been unable to find any reason for this in the Changes document.Any idea why the are red?What special measures does one take with these?"I think the intent is to show these as dedicated AA mounts. But to be honest, I don't know for sure. The best option is to wait for Lonnie to respond. Unfortunately, he is out of town (and away from a computer) until the end of next week. So let's put this one on hold until he can weigh in.

#5 Martin Jerred

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 02:50 AM

I was thinking it might AA linked.But I also have a nagging feeling that some were intended almost solely for starshellAs you say lets await the Master :-)cheersZippee

#6 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 09:48 PM

The Master? Good grief. That suggests that I will have to add a swelled head to the rest of my ailments.Seriously, I just got back in town and will try and answer questions over the next few days along with work and other action items.The red squares are intended to signify a secondary or tertiary AA battery. This was adopted for Fleet Action Imminent (FAI) as a way to help simplify the often complex WWI armament layouts. I extended the idea to Amendment 1 for the AA guns added to RN and RNN DDs. These were added for AA (in place of a torpedo tube mount in the case of the RN DDs) and were not tied in with the director controlled main battery for surface fire control. With open sights, they would have been of little use against anything but a very close target. Further, ammo for these was limited and primarily restricted to AA rounds. Since the RN DD 3" and 4" guns were strictly open sights for AA as well, some have suggested that they were added mostly for morale purposes. The RNN 75mm guns, on the other hand, were part of the basic outfit and would have been integrated into the fairly sophisticated Dutch AA fire control system.FAI has been delayed a bit in the production cycle and I forgot to define the red squares in Amendment 1. My bad. There goes that Master rating!The good new is things are looking up for FAI in ODGW's busy production schedule. Announcements will be forthcomming.LONNIE

#7 Martin Jerred

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 04:09 AM

Thanks Lonnie,That makes sense - but how does one use/not use them...or will you add a sheet to the A1 files? A secondary battery of 1 or 2 no DCT 3"/4" is pretty feeble and barely worth the effort in firing in game terms. It just seems odd that some of the (purely) AA is listed and thus destroyable - this seems to make these DDs more vulnerable for no (tangible) benefit. I have read that in the RN the 3" were used (almost) solely for starshell. I susoect we may well take the house position of ignoring them entirely :-)cheersZippee

#8 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 02:22 AM

Zippee, We also use a house rule in the Development Group of ignoring use of these few AA guns for surface actions until a target is at minimum range (3,000 yds or less) as they don't do much damage and have limited accuracy, not being tied into the director fire control system. Local control is a shift UP two row adjustment on the GUNFIRE CRT. Attacks by these guns would be much ado about nothing 99% of the time and would delay the simulation for little useful return. This house rule is also consistent with normal procedure. The ammunition for these guns was generally saved for AA use, unless a surface target was very close.I did not add an official rule to Amendment 1 as some will want to make attacks with this small local control battery. Any red blooded gamer's first response is if it can be done in theory, he should have the right to do it - and have the chance for the golden beebee, no matter how remote. Thus, this was left to the local game group. I'd recommend not simulating surface gunnery attacks for these few AA guns as a house rule to streamline play, as you noted. But, the system will accomodate it for those who want the extra detail and want to take the additional playing time.Your comment about using these guns as starshell mounts is a good clarification. Seems the Royal Navy did indeed use that tactic. Makes sense as full director control wouldn't be required and it would enable all of a DD's main battery mounts be used for gunnery attacks. We'll add that to our house rule.Finally, these guns werre not singled out for reduction of the AA battery. They are treated the same as DP gun mounts for purposes of AA battery damage. Section 2.9.6 on page 2-9 defines a streamlinedd AA capacity reduction based on overall armament reduction rather than loss of specific mounts. Those who want a more detailed effect of the loss of a mount can subtract its individual AA value [listed in the AA Capacity tables in the Bonus Files elsewhere on the ODGW website] from a ship's total AA value. That would be the same process for a 5" DP mount as for one of these "red box" AA mounts.Thanks for the clarification,LONNIE

#9 Martin Jerred

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 11:29 AM

Thanks Lonnie,That all makes sense.For ourselves we will ignore them except as starshell capable - thus not reducing the main battery and in odd scenarios where we are dealing with 'inshore' games and MTBs etc.cheersZippee

#10 William MacGillivray

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 03:47 PM

lonnie wrote:

Zippee, Your comment about using these guns as starshell mounts is a good clarification. Seems the Royal Navy did indeed use that tactic. Makes sense as full director control wouldn't be required and it would enable all of a DD's main battery mounts be used for gunnery attacks. We'll add that to our house rule.Thanks for the clarification,LONNIE

Other navies also had specific starshell guns too. For example, the first batch of Italian Soldati class destroyers had a short barrelled 4.7" starshell gun in the midships position. The second batch had the full lenght 4.7" gun in it's place and many of the (surviving) first batch were retrofitted. The Ship logs only ever show the full length gun in the midships position, never the starshell gun.

#11 Cpt M

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 01:21 PM

Other navies also had specific starshell guns too. For example, the first batch of Italian Soldati class destroyers had a short barrelled 4.7" starshell gun in the midships position. The second batch had the full lenght 4.7" gun in it's place and many of the (surviving) first batch were retrofitted. The Ship logs only ever show the full length gun in the midships position, never the starshell gun.

True enough that some navies used specialized starshell guns (sometimes called lighting howitzers). In many cases, these were done away with in favor of proper guns or replaced with AA weapons.In the case of the Italian short 4.7" (or 120mm/15) its no wonder the Italians decided to drop this dubious weapon since its effective range was only 4400yds (far too short to be an effective star shell gun). It was carried on a handful of DDs and on the 'Zara' class CAs, but seems to have been replaced or removed rather quickly.




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