13 replies to this topic

[Franz Reichardt]

Hi group,is this thing not covered (because of the abstraction level) or did I miss something?Greets

[Jim O'Neil]

The deck armor is a part of the ships log ... and that should cover it adequately. I located the ship in the Ship Logs to be sure, side armor is BB and deck armor is wrong at BB, should be BC, BC deck armor is 2-4 inches. You could almost drop it to CA, but that tends to underplay the other bulkheads an spaces involved.

[Franz Reichardt]

Bravo6 wrote:

The deck armor is a part of the ships log ... and that should cover it adequately. I located the ship in the Ship Logs to be sure, side armor is BB and deck armor is wrong at BB, should be BC, BC deck armor is 2-4 inches. You could almost drop it to CA, but that tends to underplay the other bulkheads an spaces involved.

Dear Bravo6,thanks for the swift answer.Yes, I'm your opinion, that the Hood's deck armour should be CA.But I'm confused: According to Page 'X' in the Intro of the Rules there's no Deck Armor in the Ship logs, only Hull- and Turret-Armour.There's also no special "Deck Hit" in the "WW II GUNFIRE DAMAGE"-Table. Did I miss an important Update?Greets Franz

[Bob Benge]

Franz, you are right. According to the rules the number in parenthesis is Turret Armor. Looking at the rules and just a quick check of armor values and the Deluxe Ship Logs indicate that the armor values are correct to the rules. Realize that the ships armor, both deck and belt are homogonized into one value which yields the BB result. Wikipedia, I did say a quick check :), inidcates that Hood varied its deck armor between 2" and 3" while the armor over the magazines was only 2"which would put the values as in teh book at BB with a maybe just a little leaning to BC. I hope that Coastal and/or Lonnie can weigh in on they have more of a mastery of the numbers and the design. I would say that Hoods sinking was a lucky shot that can be recreated in GQ3 by looking at the numbers as Bismarks 15" shells penetrate Hood at all ranges and a critical hit roll of Ammunition and a failed repair roll of 12 will doom the Hood. Which seems to be what happened in real life. ;)

[Franz Reichardt]

Dear bbenge,thanks for the clarifications.You are absolutly right, so Hood's deck-armour is factored into the Hull-Value, no separate Deck-Armor-Value in further Updates.No problem to me, I just wanted to check that I'm doing it right here.P.S.: Hood should be classified as a BC, a suggestion based on Movies rather on sheer numbers :lol: Greets Franz

[Dave Franklin]

While true that there is an abstraction in GQ, I think it still addresses the subject reasonably well. Recall that Hood is rated BB(BB) and Bismarck is rated BA(BA)ca. Hood should probably be considered to have Old 15", so looking at the RN GCRT her maximum range is 24000yds - at which range she only penetrates BB. Hood must close to 18000yds to penetrate BA. Bismarck's 15" guns can fire out to 30000yds without spotter aircraft assistance, and penetrate Hood's BB armor at any range.So, in an engagement using GQ, Hood will still be inclined to want to close the range - admittedly it will be so that her fire can be effective.

[Dave Franklin]

That should say Hood is rated BB(BB ). I don't know where that stupid Emoticon came from.

[gregoryk]

The catastrophic hit on HMS Hood, that everyone wants to recreate, was in fact a lucky hit that should not be forced on the British player. It can happen, but stands about the same chance as happening as it did in real life, which is to say, not very likely. As in the real engagement, the British should feel reasonably confident about engaging.There is some discussion about what actually set off the magazine explosion. The conventional theory is that the killing shell penetrated a weak area of the armor over the magazines and detonated within. An alternate theory suggests it detonated amongst the torpedoes on deck and this flashed down into the magazine. Interesting theories.Gregory

[Dave Franklin]

I agree. For Hood to blow up against Bismarck in GQ3, first Bismarck has to get a hit, which for a broadside at a range >= 18000 yds but < 30000 yds would nominally be 4 D12s for a 1 or 10 on each die (BTW, I think it's a little too easy in GQ3 to hit at long range, but that's another topic). Second, for each hit the British player would have to roll a 12 on a D12 for a Critical Hit. Third, for the Critical Hit, the British player would have to roll a 5-7 on a D12 for the possible magazine explosion. Fourth, for the possible magazine explosion, the British player would have to roll a 10-12 on a D12 to fail to flood the magazine.My calcualtion is the chance for any one penetrating hit to blow up a British ship is ~0.52%.So, Hood can engage Bismarck in GQ3 without an undue worry of blowing up, and based on what I said in my previous post, all things being equal, Hood will want to close the range on Bismarck to inside 18000 yards, basically just like she wanted to do historically. The real difference, IMO, is why she wants to close the range. Historically it was to avoid taking plunging fire through her thin deck armor. In GQ3, it's so she can penetrate Bismarck's BA armor. Personally, I'm OK with that.

[Franz Reichardt]

co_diver wrote:

Historically it was to avoid taking plunging fire through her thin deck armor. In GQ3, it's so she can penetrate Bismarck's BA armor. Personally, I'm OK with that.

That's ok for me too.Thanks for all the valuable comments on my question - really appreciated it.Greets Franz

[Lonnie Gill]

My apologies for this late reply; somehow I had missed your earlier exchange. But, I thought I would add a few final thoughts.Hood’s deck armor fits clearly into the “BB”” composite Hull armor definition listed in rule Section 1.6 with 1¼” – 2” upper deck + 2” – 3” lower deck, providing 4” – 5” over vitals and magazines. This is similar to many rebuilt battleships that served in WW II. One can quibble over the exact armor placement and her need for an upgrade that kept getting postponed – as folks still do to this day – but Hood’s fundamental problem lies elsewhere. First, the German 15” could penetrate her armor at all ranges, as shown on the Kriegsmarine Gunfire CRT. So regardless of whether you would classify her as BB or BC Hull armor, she is vulnerable. More importantly, the Achilles’ Heel of British warships in two World Wars remained their ammunition. When magazines, barbettes or ammunition in other hoists and passageways were exposed to the flash from a penetrating shell, catastrophic explosion was a very real danger - as history records in both WW I and WW II.It was not possible to protect any warship from all hits. No capital ship had enough armor to fully protect the ammunition in her secondary or AA batteries from battleship caliber main hits. Further, Hood also had lightly armored above waterline torpedo tubes. [There are still theories that a sympathetic explosion of torpedoes or 4” ammunition may have set off her magazines. They are not generally regarded as the probable cause in recent years, but remain plausible.] Combine all these risk areas with dangerously sensitive ammunition and you have a recipe for disaster.Finally, Hood is not subject to the “Old 15” range limit on the ROYAL NAVY GUNFIRE CRT. That is listed for ships, which had not had their main battery elevation increased to 30° during modernization. But, as several of you have noted, her WW I vintage guns were not able to penetrate Bismarck’s heavy armor at long range. Hood was steaming to close within Bismarck’s Immunity Zone when fate intervened.LONNIE

[Franz Reichardt]

Dear Lonnie,interesting facts on Hood's Deck Armor.Didn't know that - thanksGreets Franz

[david giles]

I have just started with GQ3 and this was one of my first questions to myself - however in my version of the basic rules (downloaded in the last few days) Hood
is listed as BA (BA) - where do I find the updates that ammend it to BB (BB)?

[david giles]

Aha! Seek and ye shall find! Amendment 1 ship logs. :-) Now I understand the debate! Im slow but I get there :-)