8 replies to this topic

[Jason Thompson]

just a quick question...what counts as "low visibility", specifically when do you start to use the DARK range scale and RFC adjustments instead of the DAY scale?

even more specifically...the game on sunday is in Force 5 conditions at Dusk. As far as we can tell, this mean that the initial 11,000 yard visibility is immediately reduced by D6x1000 yards (we rolled a 1) and then reduced by another 1000yards every turn until the 2000yard minimum is reached.

Is this correct? If we had rolled a higher initial visibility, when would "low vis" start?

any help would be appreciated

[Cpt M]

When the adjusted visibility (after rolling for the reduction) reaches 2000 yds, you then switch over to the NIGHT tables. This reduction is rolled each tactical turn. So if you start out a dusk turn with a visibility limit of 11000 yds, and you rolled a reduction of 3000 yds for turn 1 (8000 yds max), 2000 yds for turn 2 (6000 yds max), and 4000 for turn 3 (2000 yds), as of turn 3 you'd be on the night tables since visibility has dropped to 2000 yds. (At least that's way my group plays it!)

[Jason Thompson]

Thanks Coastal
Gonna make for a very short range fight

When the adjusted visibility (after rolling for the reduction) reaches 2000 yds, you then switch over to the NIGHT tables. This reduction is rolled each tactical turn. So if you start out a dusk turn with a visibility limit of 11000 yds, and you rolled a reduction of 3000 yds for turn 1 (8000 yds max), 2000 yds for turn 2 (6000 yds max), and 4000 for turn 3 (2000 yds), as of turn 3 you'd be on the night tables since visibility has dropped to 2000 yds. (At least that's way my group plays it!)

[Bob Benge]

For my edification then, what is the range the is considered 'Low Visibility"? Would that be considered anything other than normal visibility?
Also, Should there be an addition to the rules that states what Low Visibilty and Night Visibility ranges are? I tried to look this info up in the rules last night and could find nothing that would indicate what the ranges are.

[Dave Franklin]

Unless I'm missing something, switching to night when the visibility is reduced to 2000yds doesn't make any sense to me. Say it's clear, and a full moon period. Most nationalities can acquire at night out to 20000yds (the Italians are limited to 16000yds, based on the Amendment 1 charts). What sense does it make that visibility drops to 2000yds, then once it's night the possible visibility jumps back up to 20000yds?

My first thought is the Night rules (Acquisition, Range Scales, Fratricide, etc.) should be used as soon as daytime visibilty drops below the max night time visibility for either player, based on the current conditions - e.g., phase of the moon and cloud cover (Note: it must be the range for either player, otherwise the Italians would actually benefit from not having to switch to night until 16000yds - again assuming clear/full moon).

Might have to think this through some more, but like I said, that's my first thought...

[Neil Foster]

Hi Dave,

It's not just when you shift over to using the night tables but what counts actually counts as low visability.

Reading the RFC rules its seems that it has no affect on gunnery during the day, only at night and low visibility conditions do you get the downward shift on gunnery crt. However other than fog or a unit being within a rain squall during daylight hours, would you get to use your RFC, as these seem to be the only low visibility examples I can find.

It confuses me that one day visability could be 36000 yards and the next day 10000 yards, both could occur within daylight hours. But being only able to aquire out to 10000 is significantly less than 36000 yards. I would say that in comparision to a day where you could see out to 36000 yards, being only able to see out to 10000 yards is low visability. But nowhere in the rules is any distinction made in reguard to this.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

Cheers

Iggy.

[Cpt M]

It confuses me that one day visability could be 36000 yards and the next day 10000 yards, both could occur within daylight hours. But being only able to aquire out to 10000 is significantly less than 36000 yards. I would say that in comparision to a day where you could see out to 36000 yards, being only able to see out to 10000 yards is low visability. But nowhere in the rules is any distinction made in reguard to this.

On the larger issue of 'low visibility' and its impact, I'll leave to Lonnie to clarify that. But as the the question of how daylight visibilty can vary so much; it can and dramtically so. Having spent a considerable amount of time on dive boats off San Diego, I have seen conditions that range from unlimited visibility (to the horizon) down to barely a mile, and all were in bright conditions. One thing to keep in mind is that the amount of haze in the air (not fog, that's an altogether different condition) can severely degrade visibility on the water. These conditions, however, are in no way the same as night conditions, so applying the night acquistion rules would be wrong. For example, in conditions of low cloud with a lot of haze, you might be able to see an object clearly (that is, able to make out size, shape, speed and heading) at 5 miles (10000yds). As the range increases the object will 'fade out' until it just disappears in the murk. Up to that threshold, the object will be clearly visible as if under ideal conditions of bright sunlight (sometimes moreso since there is no glare or shadow to contend with). I've seen this many, many times.

Additionally, visibility conditions can change very quickly. Off the coast here, we have a condition during the late afternoon in which low clouds are pushed from the ocean to the shore. In under an hour, offshore visibilty can drop from unlimited to barely a mile, if that. And pity you if any fog comes in with it; that can make getting back to the dock a real adventure...

[Jahan]

I also have a related question, in daylight games where the ships are beyond the visible range do you use the actual ship miniatures or the blips as per the night rules? If using miniatures this is counter intuitive to the idea that the ships aren't in visible range to those weather conditions, however, reading the rules would indicate that you use the miniatures to distinguish night can day combat.

[Cpt M]

I also have a related question, in daylight games where the ships are beyond the visible range do you use the actual ship miniatures or the blips as per the night rules? If using miniatures this is counter intuitive to the idea that the ships aren't in visible range to those weather conditions, however, reading the rules would indicate that you use the miniatures to distinguish night can day combat.

You could substitute markers for the miniatures once they go beyond visibility, but you'd just have to replace them once they become visible again. The larger point, though, is once a ship crosses the threshold of the visible range, it is literally not seen; you'd have no idea of heading or speed. Generally, for my group, a ship that sails out of visible range is normally leaving the battlefield so for it, the game is normally over.