3 replies to this topic

[Aman]

Ken and I are refighting Savo Island as our intro to the rules and as the opening of our TSC. It's been quite a learning experience!

Per our understanding of the Scenario, we allowed the USN to deploy in any formations anywhere within 10K of Savo Island and within Ironbottom Sound. We therefore allowed the IJN the opportunity to attack with two subs and pick any attack vector they wanted - North or South of Savo, or from the East circumnavigating Floriday Island.

Deployments and Attack Vector
I chose to put a large screening force of two CL and 6 DD behind Savo island, in one division led by the USS San Juan with it's R+ radar. The HMAS Australia I left in it's historical location, anchored for a meeting near Lunga Point. All five CA I put on a linear patrol from the Lunga Point anchorage to the Tulagi anchorage (North/South basically). Towards the East I put two DD on anti-sub patrol. Ken chose to cross Savo Island far to the South and run near Guadalcanal, change course to clear Lunga Point and then attack that anchorage of 15 transports.

Opening Moves
Ken got to within about 12000y of the screening force successfully and was finally Detected (I rolled a '7' on 2d12 added together). The screen retreated North away from the IJN, circled around and began approaching them on a closing course about 5000y parallel. When we closed to 6000y the IJN had Acquired the screen without being themselves Acquired, and decided to open fire with guns, reserving the limited torpedo supply for the USN cruisers. Neither side approached very close to one another for a while.

Engagement
In the pecking away at distance the USN lost two DD and had both CL get badly damaged, in exchange for badly damaging two CL, one with a lucky torpedo hit that whopped a Bulkhead. The forces circled each other counter-clockwise a little, each closing on the tail of the enemy column(s), and then the IJN detected the HMAS Australia which was finally alerted and began starting up its boilers. Fires then began ravaging the lone IJN DD, and a CL with a torpedo hit sunk, while the HMAS Hobart lost all its main battery, failed it's morale and began departing. The IJN force of two CL and one DD also failed it's Morale and began considering how to withdraw - with the USN West, and the island South and East, it's not clear where to go. All five IJN CA then closed on the Australia and some shooting was exchanged, when a Critical Hit resulted in an Ammo Critical - the Australia rolled a '12' (needing a 1-9) and catastrophically blew up (much like the Hood...).

Around this same time the USN CA force had Detected the IJN and been alerted via TBS that they were enemy (two rolls of <6) and changed course, approaching Lunga Point at fastest speed / acceleration. Just after the Australia lit up the night, the IJN poised to cross the USN "T" on the next turn. However, the front turrets of the 5 CA engaged the IJN in a devastating round, scoring no less than 10 heats EACH on the lead and last CA respectively, both at 6-8K yards and Illuminated. The fabulous rolling continued into the Damage Table, and both were sunk for relatively minor damage to three USN CA. Howerver, the IJN have now Acquired the transport Formation, and are in range!

With the IJN having lost two CA, a CL and a DD, with another CL badly damaged and struggling to escape, this refight has already changed history. As we both learn the rules and make lots of errors, the scenario still is clearly skewed to the USN. It seems unlikely that the Detection rules, as written, combined with Starshells, gives the IJN the opportunities they need to win an uphill battle, albeit a surprise attack. The bottom line is that the USN player will NOT be surprised, and a mere slowing in Detection and Acquisition doesn't follow history close enough.

Recommendations:
1. The USN/Allies must keep the same formations of ships.
2. Mere Detection of a Bogey shouldn't allow them to change coarse/speed. It should be Acquisition.
3. the surprise element should be gamed as each ship must roll Morale successfully before changing course/speed, but can fire back if fired upon.

Anything else seems like it will favor the USN too much, far as I can tell, and I'm playing the USN!

Still, a good way to jump in feet first with the rules.

[Cpt M]

Ken and I are refighting Savo Island as our intro to the rules and as the opening of our TSC. It's been quite a learning experience!

Per our understanding of the Scenario, we allowed the USN to deploy in any formations anywhere within 10K of Savo Island and within Ironbottom Sound. We therefore allowed the IJN the opportunity to attack with two subs and pick any attack vector they wanted - North or South of Savo, or from the East circumnavigating Floriday Island.

Deployments and Attack Vector
I chose to put a large screening force of two CL and 6 DD behind Savo island, in one division led by the USS San Juan with it's R+ radar. The HMAS Australia I left in it's historical location, anchored for a meeting near Lunga Point. All five CA I put on a linear patrol from the Lunga Point anchorage to the Tulagi anchorage (North/South basically). Towards the East I put two DD on anti-sub patrol. Ken chose to cross Savo Island far to the South and run near Guadalcanal, change course to clear Lunga Point and then attack that anchorage of 15 transports.

Opening Moves
Ken got to within about 12000y of the screening force successfully and was finally Detected (I rolled a '7' on 2d12 added together). The screen retreated North away from the IJN, circled around and began approaching them on a closing course about 5000y parallel. When we closed to 6000y the IJN had Acquired the screen without being themselves Acquired, and decided to open fire with guns, reserving the limited torpedo supply for the USN cruisers. Neither side approached very close to one another for a while.

Engagement
In the pecking away at distance the USN lost two DD and had both CL get badly damaged, in exchange for badly damaging two CL, one with a lucky torpedo hit that whopped a Bulkhead. The forces circled each other counter-clockwise a little, each closing on the tail of the enemy column(s), and then the IJN detected the HMAS Australia which was finally alerted and began starting up its boilers. Fires then began ravaging the lone IJN DD, and a CL with a torpedo hit sunk, while the HMAS Hobart lost all its main battery, failed it's morale and began departing. The IJN force of two CL and one DD also failed it's Morale and began considering how to withdraw - with the USN West, and the island South and East, it's not clear where to go. All five IJN CA then closed on the Australia and some shooting was exchanged, when a Critical Hit resulted in an Ammo Critical - the Australia rolled a '12' (needing a 1-9) and catastrophically blew up (much like the Hood...).

Around this same time the USN CA force had Detected the IJN and been alerted via TBS that they were enemy (two rolls of <6) and changed course, approaching Lunga Point at fastest speed / acceleration. Just after the Australia lit up the night, the IJN poised to cross the USN "T" on the next turn. However, the front turrets of the 5 CA engaged the IJN in a devastating round, scoring no less than 10 heats EACH on the lead and last CA respectively, both at 6-8K yards and Illuminated. The fabulous rolling continued into the Damage Table, and both were sunk for relatively minor damage to three USN CA. Howerver, the IJN have now Acquired the transport Formation, and are in range!

With the IJN having lost two CA, a CL and a DD, with another CL badly damaged and struggling to escape, this refight has already changed history. As we both learn the rules and make lots of errors, the scenario still is clearly skewed to the USN. It seems unlikely that the Detection rules, as written, combined with Starshells, gives the IJN the opportunities they need to win an uphill battle, albeit a surprise attack. The bottom line is that the USN player will NOT be surprised, and a mere slowing in Detection and Acquisition doesn't follow history close enough.

Recommendations:
1. The USN/Allies must keep the same formations of ships.
2. Mere Detection of a Bogey shouldn't allow them to change coarse/speed. It should be Acquisition.
3. the surprise element should be gamed as each ship must roll Morale successfully before changing course/speed, but can fire back if fired upon.

Anything else seems like it will favor the USN too much, far as I can tell, and I'm playing the USN!

Still, a good way to jump in feet first with the rules.

Sounds like a fairly typical night battle, ie, a knife fight in a darkened closet. Because of the way detection and acqusition works, the results can vary wildly. Basically, he who sees first, is likely to get the first (and best) shot off. Having played this scenario several times, I assure you that the results can run from one extreme to the other. And if handled correctly, the IJN will almost always have the advantage in the early stages of detection and acquisition. Of course, once the shells start flying, things can change very quickly and very dramatically (as when your USN CAs pasted the IJN CAs).

Now as to the suggested changes:

1. Generally a good idea. The historical deployment does reflect the general lack of expertise in night fighting and should probably be used. That said, players should be allowed to 'shake things up' to test out their own ideas regarding deployment (and introduce some level of unpredictability to the scenario).

2. Can't agree with this. A detected contact represents an unknown that the force commander must be allowed to investigate. To not allow a force to react is to say 'we know something is out there, but we're not going to check it out'. That would be ahistorical.

3. Also can't agree. Both forces are expecting to contact the enemy. And their command staffs are fully prepared to respond when contact is made. To force a Morale check is to assume that they're unprepared and not expecting contact. While this may apply in some battles, it definitely does not in this one.

The Night Combat section is the probably the hardest part of the rules to master (I know it took me a long time to get comfortable with them). So keep slogging away at them; it will become easier!

[gregoryk]

Ken and I are refighting Savo Island as our intro to the rules and as the opening of our TSC. It's been quite a learning experience!

Per our understanding of the Scenario, we allowed the USN to deploy in any formations anywhere within 10K of Savo Island and within Ironbottom Sound. We therefore allowed the IJN the opportunity to attack with two subs and pick any attack vector they wanted - North or South of Savo, or from the East circumnavigating Floriday Island.

Deployments and Attack Vector
I chose to put a large screening force of two CL and 6 DD behind Savo island, in one division led by the USS San Juan with it's R+ radar. The HMAS Australia I left in it's historical location, anchored for a meeting near Lunga Point. All five CA I put on a linear patrol from the Lunga Point anchorage to the Tulagi anchorage (North/South basically). Towards the East I put two DD on anti-sub patrol. Ken chose to cross Savo Island far to the South and run near Guadalcanal, change course to clear Lunga Point and then attack that anchorage of 15 transports.

Opening Moves
Ken got to within about 12000y of the screening force successfully and was finally Detected (I rolled a '7' on 2d12 added together). The screen retreated North away from the IJN, circled around and began approaching them on a closing course about 5000y parallel. When we closed to 6000y the IJN had Acquired the screen without being themselves Acquired, and decided to open fire with guns, reserving the limited torpedo supply for the USN cruisers. Neither side approached very close to one another for a while.

Engagement
In the pecking away at distance the USN lost two DD and had both CL get badly damaged, in exchange for badly damaging two CL, one with a lucky torpedo hit that whopped a Bulkhead. The forces circled each other counter-clockwise a little, each closing on the tail of the enemy column(s), and then the IJN detected the HMAS Australia which was finally alerted and began starting up its boilers. Fires then began ravaging the lone IJN DD, and a CL with a torpedo hit sunk, while the HMAS Hobart lost all its main battery, failed it's morale and began departing. The IJN force of two CL and one DD also failed it's Morale and began considering how to withdraw - with the USN West, and the island South and East, it's not clear where to go. All five IJN CA then closed on the Australia and some shooting was exchanged, when a Critical Hit resulted in an Ammo Critical - the Australia rolled a '12' (needing a 1-9) and catastrophically blew up (much like the Hood...).

Around this same time the USN CA force had Detected the IJN and been alerted via TBS that they were enemy (two rolls of <6) and changed course, approaching Lunga Point at fastest speed / acceleration. Just after the Australia lit up the night, the IJN poised to cross the USN "T" on the next turn. However, the front turrets of the 5 CA engaged the IJN in a devastating round, scoring no less than 10 heats EACH on the lead and last CA respectively, both at 6-8K yards and Illuminated. The fabulous rolling continued into the Damage Table, and both were sunk for relatively minor damage to three USN CA. Howerver, the IJN have now Acquired the transport Formation, and are in range!

With the IJN having lost two CA, a CL and a DD, with another CL badly damaged and struggling to escape, this refight has already changed history. As we both learn the rules and make lots of errors, the scenario still is clearly skewed to the USN. It seems unlikely that the Detection rules, as written, combined with Starshells, gives the IJN the opportunities they need to win an uphill battle, albeit a surprise attack. The bottom line is that the USN player will NOT be surprised, and a mere slowing in Detection and Acquisition doesn't follow history close enough.

Recommendations:
1. The USN/Allies must keep the same formations of ships.
2. Mere Detection of a Bogey shouldn't allow them to change coarse/speed. It should be Acquisition.
3. the surprise element should be gamed as each ship must roll Morale successfully before changing course/speed, but can fire back if fired upon.

Anything else seems like it will favor the USN too much, far as I can tell, and I'm playing the USN!

Still, a good way to jump in feet first with the rules.

Seems like the US benefited from some timely good die rolls. It is always difficult to replay a scenario that basically requires one side be straight-jacketed into being surprised. I think the current level of restriction makes for a good game overall. You are certainly free to change the scenario to your liking. Forcing the US to stay in their historical formations, will also tend to make the game go historically. But that might not be as much fun for the Allied player, who may want to try out alternate strategies. I tend to disagree that the Allies should not be able to break formation until acquisition of the enemy force. I am glad you played out the scenario, these type of games where one side is essentially hamstrung, are not terribly popular, but they can be good studies in tactics. The night battle rules produce some of the best games of GQIII.

[Aman]

It's very difficult to make up for one thing - the USN player KNOWS he is being attacked. Historically, they were "ready" but didn't _know_.

On top of that, you have to make up for the fact that players basically can see what's coming on the table.

While I understand what you're saying, pulling a balanced scenario out of this is impossible, as it is written. If the USN player has any brains at all, he'll put all the expendables out on the periphery as a tripwire, gather all the cruisers together near the transports and wait. Anything else and the USN player deserves what he gets. However, you have to allow for a USN player who has read the scenario and knows too much.

The scenario as written is presently unwinnable by the IJN. Sure, they can bang up a few ships, but victory is really about the transports.

Ken and I are re-playing it, as the first play was turning into a massacre of the IJN. This time, against my opinion, we let the USN react to a radar Contact by heading towards it. Savo Island got into the way by chance (good luck for the IJN) and the USN didn't have an opportunity to detect the IJN advance until they rounded the island. Since I re-organized the Allies and had the San Juan (R+ radar) as Division Commander, they quickly detected the IJN despite land shadow, etc. The initial engagement has resulted in the San Juan being pretty much trashed and a DD damaged. The IJN has some scattered damage. However, my screening force is 6 DD and 2 CL, with all the CA patrolling near the transport areas on Guadalcanal and Florida Islands. It's still a tossup, but I know one thing that the original Allied commanders didn't know - I'm definitely under attack.

So we'll see how this play goes. This will be the one that counts for out campaign.