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#301 W. Clark

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Posted 03 July 2023 - 11:29 PM

​I love the WWII era Armada Argentine. 2 cut down knockoffs of the Trento, 1 up gunned Arethusa derivative, 5 copies of the Scott class leaders (2 purchased from Spain & 3 built in England) and 7 copies of the RN G class. It's a well-rounded little navy and a good match for the contemporary historical Dutch Fleet. The lengths I go to get the Dutch on the table with anything not Japanese. The guy constructing a WWII era ABC supplement for ODGW losing his hard drive was a real blow. But we keep banging on, nevertheless. I leave the Argentine bats out as their mechanical defects by that point were very real. Unfortunately, neither Brazil or Chile has a similarly balanced navy during that time period.  

 

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#302 healey36

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Posted 05 July 2023 - 03:57 PM

The WWI-era fleets are interesting, a quick look at a couple volumes of Janes shows Argentina, Chile, and Brazil having some substantial assets. I seem to recall there were also a number of ships under construction in Britain when the balloon went up, with those being requisitioned and completed for the Royal Navy instead. Some may have ultimately found there way to South America after the cessation of hostilities, not sure. I'd have to read some history to get a sense of who might tangle with who.

With regards to those "cut down knockoffs of the Trento", Almirante Brown and Vienticinco de Mayo may have been under-armed with their six 7.5-inch, but damn they were lovely ships.

#303 W. Clark

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Posted 05 July 2023 - 06:44 PM

Yes, they are. They were supposed to be armed with a reduced 8" (6 instead of 8 guns) armament, but Argentina ran into money problems early on and the reduction to 7.5" and protection (the Trento's had good turret protection) was the result. There was supposed to be a third cruiser, but the money problems ended that. But the Italians made good looking cruisers for sure, and the ships were very popular in the Armada.

 

They match up well with the Dutch. Their protection is such that the Dutch can penetrate them (as they can the Dutch). They have 3 cruisers (including the enlarged Arethusa, La Argentina) to the four Dutch and less guns; but I rate the 7.5" as 8" (1.5 to1) EDR and La Argentina's 6" can rapidly fire where the Dutch 5.9" cannot. Also, all of the Argentine cruisers have torpedoes where only Tromp has them for the Dutch. The Dutch shoot better (I use RM gunnery and torpedoes as well as damage control for the Armada). The 7.5" on the RM gunnery CRT is an older gun and the ones on the de Mayo class have a longer range, but its close enough. I just up the EDR. About a third (5 out of 7) of the Argentine DDs are larger and the rest are equivalent to the Dutch DDs. But all the DDs are copies of British designs (Scott & G class for the Argentines) or derived from British designs (Amazon & Ambuscade for the Dutch Admiral class).

 

All in all it makes for a balance little fleet action, but the two sides are not carbon copies. The same sort of applies to a matchup between the Armada Espana and the Dutch. The upside is that we have CRTs, damage control and morale for the Armada Espana. You do need to put the Dutch Endratch class cruisers on the table to balance the scenario. The Endratch's have ten 5.9" and torpedoes and that evens things out. The Spanish CLs are improved copies of the Emerald (better gun layout) but only have triple torpedoes mounts. Neither side's cruisers rapid fire. The Spanish DDs are all copies of the Scott class leaders, so you need to cut down their number or add the Tjerk Heddes class Dutch DDs to the mix. That is a larger scenario, but not too large. The Spanish torpedoes are good. They are copies of early Brit torpedo marks.

 

IMHO if you are looking for a couple of balanced (small) fleet action scenarios in the WWII era, these work very well. 

 

WMC



#304 healey36

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Posted 10 July 2023 - 07:49 AM

Not intending to drift too far off topic, but when you play the Dutch, do you ever stretch for the 1047 battlecruisers (proposed but never built)? I know there are many reasons they weren't/couldn't be built, but it is intriguing to think about, especially their potential impact, if any, in the South Pacific.



#305 W. Clark

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Posted 11 July 2023 - 05:32 AM

Yes, I called it Java Sea Fantasy as I recall. I had the Scharnhorst knockoffs and Tiger (I labeled it fantasy) with the cruisers and DDs. The Japanese had the Kongos, 2 good CAs (I don't remember for sure, but I think they were Myokos), a pair of Sendais and a mix of 14 Asashio, Kagero and Shiratsuyu DDs. Basically, Java Sea with Kongos. The BCs battered one another to pieces with the Dutch getting the upper hand, but not decisively so. The Japanese won it with a text book torpedo attack that finished off the wounded Dutch BCs. I don't know if the AAR is still in the Forum as I lost a lot of posts when the system took a dump a couple of years ago. I've tried just about every Dutch variant from DTMB. There is the Dutch Panzerschiff (cruisers D&E) based on the Dutch building the improved PB that eventually morphed into the Scharnhorsts. The 3 Dutch PBs ambushed a pair of Kongos (there were cruisers & DDs involved) at night and shot them to doll rags before finishing them off with torps. I've also tried the Mackensens, but the ambush went the other way with them. This why I'm at pains to get the Dutch on the table with just about anyone not Japanese.

 

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#306 healey36

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 01:22 PM

Headed up the Baltic in our next iteration; there's been some Russian minelayer activity off Gotland that needs to be dealt with.

Baltic

Roon and Prinz Adalbert put to sea.

Not much in the fleet cabinets for the Tsar's navy. Work to be done.

#307 W. Clark

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Posted 13 July 2023 - 04:01 AM

​I used to have the world in 1:6000 before the wildfire. Now I'm pretty much just the RN and the HSF. I once put on a scenario of a fantasy fight between the Allies and the Central Powers. Each side had four squadrons of 6 CAs each (I like armored cruisers). The IJN changed sides and fought with the CP to make up their numbers. I must say that even in 1:6000 forty-eight armored cruisers steaming around smoking up the joint was a stirring sight. The Allies won it but both sides got pounded. But I have not done any WWI for some time now. I'll have to get out FAI and clear out the cobwebs. Maybe, another go-round of the Utsire Island scenario.

 

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#308 healey36

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Posted 13 July 2023 - 08:15 AM

FAI is simpler, hence one of the attractions, along with the esoteric nature of the fleets. Also, no seaplanes and other flammables, so greatly reduced chance of fire. Playing GQIII, I find myself constantly tamping out, or attempting to tamp out fires.

 

Along those lines, the idea of losing all of this stuff in a wildfire is devastating. To see fifty years worth of work wiped out, not to mention the house and other personal belongings, would just be horrific. I'm sure finding your way back from that was difficult. You have my deepest sympathies in that regard, but you apparently have made it. 



#309 W. Clark

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Posted 13 July 2023 - 03:52 PM

I made a choice to live under old growth and choices have consequences. If the trees burn, then you burn, and I knew that up front. But I got in 18 years before I failed to dodge Nature's revenge. What I really miss is the reference library I had built up over 40 years plus. I cannot even remember everything that I had on hand, until I have a question to which I used to have the answer. So, I'm concentrating on naval and WWII at that for replacement as best I can. I just don't have the energy to pursue all those other eras anymore.

 

WMC



#310 healey36

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Posted 16 July 2023 - 04:14 PM

Yup, most times it's the books you miss the most.



#311 healey36

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Posted 11 August 2023 - 09:01 AM

Due to the dearth of ships in the fleet cabinets representing the Russian navy, protected cruiser Askold has been recalled to the Baltic. Here she is seen steaming northwest off Ristna Point:

 

Askold
 
Impressive with her twelve six-inch and five tall funnels, Askold had proven a survivor.

 



#312 healey36

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 04:02 PM

Second Battle of Gotland

5 October 1915

 

Twelve months into the war, the volume of iron ore shipments from Sweden to Germany was ramping up. Nearly forty percent of Germany’s iron ore supply would come from Sweden, and both the British and the Russians took a keen interest in interdicting this traffic. The loss of this source of material would undoubtedly crimp the Kaiser’s war-effort in problematic fashion, and the Imperial Navy looked to protect it.

 

In 1914, Sweden’s rail network was largely inadequate for landward transport of ore to its southern ports. It was unfortunate, as had the capability been there, the sea route would have been greatly shortened and its defense made substantially easier. There was an iron ore railway that had been completed in 1902 between Luleå and Narvik, but that was impractical for obvious reasons. So instead, ore destined for Germany was transported southeastward to various ports on the Gulf of Bothnia or the Northern Baltic, loaded aboard bulk carriers and converted freighters, than carried south to the ore terminals of Northern Germany. It was a precarious route of considerable length that provided the enemy numerous opportunities for interception.

 

Gotland is a large island that sits smack in the middle of the Baltic approximately 50 nautical miles south of Stockholm. A small naval facility was located on the island at Visby, and this was made available to the Germans as required. The route of the ore carriers passed on the western side of the island through a wide channel of some 40 nautical miles. For the Russian Navy, this offered a number of operational advantages, one being the relatively short striking distance from a number of its naval bases, a second being the constriction it offered for search and engagement, be it surface ships, submarines, or naval mines.

 

Sweden, a declared neutral, was ill-suited and reluctant to provide protection for the trade routes south, and since most of the commercial transport was German, it fell to the Kaiserliche Marine to defend them. At this point in the war, merchant ships travelled singly along the established route. Conceptually, it was the route that had to be defended, not the individual ships. This would change in the coming months, but for now, much like the North Sea and the Atlantic, it was all rather haphazard.

 

What follows is a posed encounter between the Kaiserliche Marine and the Imperial Russian Navy in October 1915, some three months after the First Battle of Gotland in July 1915.

 

Situation

 

In the closing days of September 1915, Rear Admiral Mikhail Bakhirev, commander of the 1st Cruiser Brigade, received orders to return to sea to provide cover for mining operations in the waters directly south of Gotland during the first week of October. A similar effort three months earlier had resulted in the Battle of Åland Islands (also known as the First Battle of Gotland), an engagement in which Bakhirev had seen a number of advantages frittered away in the confusion of battle. He pined for another crack at the Germans, and now it seemed he might get one.

 

Within the next 30-45 days, the sea ice would start to form in the northern reaches of the Gulf of Bothnia and the number of ore carriers making the voyage south would begin to decline. It was imperative for the Germans to see that the increasingly vulnerable lanes remain unimpeded for as long as possible. The Russians hoped to slam the door.

 

On the evening of 3 September, a message was received at Baltic Naval Station headquarters at Kiel from the weather station at Hoburgen reporting minelaying activity by Russian naval auxiliaries in the waters off the southern end of Gotland. These reports were corroborated by those of the Swedish torpedo boat Regulus, assigned to patrol the southern end of the strait between the island and the Swedish mainland. The information was relayed to the base at Danzig, where Konteradmiral Johannes von Karpf was soon ordered to sea.

 

There would now be two German operations underway simultaneously. Konteradmiral Albert Hopman with Prinz Adalbert (flag), Prinz Heinrich, and Bremen had sortied a few days earlier in a cover operation for German minelayers sowing a field off Östergarn on the eastern coast of Gotland. Von Karpf would sail with cruisers Roon (flag) and Stettin, together with a pair of destroyers to sort out the reported Russian activity southwest of the island.

 

Thanks to the German codebook captured by the Russians with the loss of SMS Magdeburg in August 1914, both they and the British (a copy having been provided to the Admiralty) were able to decipher most German dispatches well into 1917. Reports related to Hopman’s and von Karpf’s sorties were analyzed in the naval offices at St. Petersburg and relayed to the 1st and 2nd Cruiser Brigades. Bakhirev would sail with cruisers Oleg (flag), Bogatyr, and the recently recalled Askold on a sweep south of Gotland. Admiral V. K. Pilkina would sortie with cruisers Bayan, Admiral Makarov, and Aurora on a sweep of the eastern coast of the island.

 

For game purposes, four players were available, each assigned to one of the four commands. Yours truly was assigned to von Karpf’s command.

 

Day of Battle

 

Von Karpf slipped his moorings and passed out of the Westerplatte at 2030, 4 October. Hopman’s cruisers had departed two days earlier. Von Karpf’s column had Roon on the point followed by Stettin and destroyers G7 and G8 close behind. He set his speed at 15 knots with the intention of reaching the sweep area by 0930 the next morning.

 

2nd Battle Of Gotland B
Von Karpf's force (SMS Roon, Stettin, G7, and G8)

 

Maintaining radio silence, the trek north was uneventful. At 2300, von Karpf ordered the destroyers to move up into positions 800 yards off Roon’s port and starboard bow. The moon was just a sliver in the night sky, so there was little light to silhouette the ships. Still, von Karpf feared the possibility of a submarine attack and hoped the destroyers out front would improve the chances for detection of any threat.   

 

The eastern sky began to brighten with the first hint of sunrise at 0535. The column was proceeding north-northeast at 15 knots, still 50 miles short of their planned sweep location. At 0612, a faint smudge of smoke was observed on the horizon off Roon’s port bow. Von Karpf sent G8 to investigate while the rest of the column proceeded on course. At 0636, G8 signaled that they had spotted a Russian minelayer, the Narova, but that they had been unable to close to effective range due banks of morning fog. Von Karpf signaled G8 to return to the column, noting that the minelayer was quite far south of the targeted sweep area; after some consideration, he decided not to alter his course or amend his plans.

 

For his part, Bakhirev was barreling due west across the Baltic, having sailed down the length of the Latvian coast before making his westward turn. His column had Oleg on point, followed by Bogatyr and Askold, 400 yards apart, proceeding at 14 knots. Calculating their current position at 0512, the charts had them nearly 55 miles west-southwest of Sundre, the southern tip of Gotland.

 

2nd Battle Of Gotland A
Bakhirev's cruisers (Oleg, Bogatyr, and Askold).

 

At 0736, Stettin’s watch officer reported a faint smudge of smoke on the horizon off the starboard bow. The sighting was relayed to Roon where von Karpf made the presumption that whatever/whoever it was, it was almost certainly unfriendly, and ordered the due-north heading maintained while raising speed to 17 knots. Visibility was excellent, the morning haze having burned off, and the sea “gentle”, unusual for this time of year. The estimated range was in excess of 18000 yards.

 

Twelve minutes passed and the directors reported the target as three cruisers proceeding at an estimated speed of 12 knots, now at a range of ~ 15000 yards. Von Karpf ordered the column to turn ten degrees northwest to begin closing.

 

Bakhirev received the first report of a target at 0754, estimated at 15500 yards off his port beam and on a northwesterly heading. He ordered his column to maintain its speed and heading, aware that he would soon pass within two miles of the southern tip of Gotland, briefly limiting his ability to maneuver.

 

At 0806, von Karpf turns another eight degrees to a heading due northwest. With the range down to 12000 yards, he orders Roon to open on the lead cruiser. Not yet within her broadside arc, the forward 8.2-inch fires, missing short.

 

If the enemy is three cruisers, he knows he’s sorely outgunned. In an effort to distract and possibly divide his adversaries, Von Karpf orders the destroyers to attack the enemy column from the rear. At 0812, G7 and G8 raise speed and turn north.

 

Bakhirev sees Roon’s ranging salvo fall short just a few hundred yards from Oleg’s port side. Maintaining his speed and heading, he orders all three of his cruisers to concentrate fire on the lead German ship. No hits are scored.

 

Roon brings both of her twin 8.2-inch mounts to bear on Oleg, but they miss. Stettin manages a non-penetrating hit on Bogatyr, yielding minor hull damage (1/2 hull-box).

 

2nd Battle Of Gotland D
Roon brackets Oleg to no effect.

 

Von Karpf realizes this is the equivalent of a schoolyard fight; one has to hit the bully while he’s taking his coat off, otherwise the situation is likely to turn ugly in a hurry. He has advantages, however, primarily in Roon’s DCT fire-control. On this table, however, he also has disadvantages...he’s German and the dice here are routinely unsympathetic. Despite this, he continues, seeking some hits.

 

The next exchange yields little. Neither Roon or Stettin find their targets. Oleg manages another non-penetrating hit on Roon, inflicting no damage. Askold, on the other hand, becomes aware of the closing DDs and turns her 6-inch on the charging G7. One hit disables the destroyer’s forward 3.4-inch as she continues to close.

 

At 0824, Oleg takes a hit from Roon on the port side of her hull, just below the bridge. Flooding reduces her top speed to 20 knots. Oleg’s return fire misses, as does Bogatyr’s.

 

At 0830, Bakhirev orders Askold to turn out of line and raise her speed, coming around on the closing destroyers. For their part, the DDs turn a few degrees northeast, thereby taking themselves out of range for firing torpedoes. It’s a head-scratching maneuver, but it is what it is. Askold prepares to rake them with 6-inch.

 

Roon lands an 8.2-inch round onto Oleg’s deck into a ventilator just behind her forward funnel; there are a number of casualties but no significant structural damage. Oleg’s return fire lands a 6-inch that penetrates Roon’s hull (critical hit), disabling her forward engine room. The cruiser loses quite a bit of steam and her speed falls to 13 knots, her new maximum.

 

The German destroyers race across Bakhirev’s wake, 3800 yards astern of Bogatyr. They make a sharp turn to port, aiming to run the Russian cruisers down into torpedo range. Oleg and Bagatyr remain focused on von Karpf’s cruisers, while Askold tries desperately to get back to a position to engage the DDs.

 

But no sooner does Bakhirev signal Askold these instructions, he changes them, now sending her south to close on von Karp’s column from astern. Oleg and Bogatyr turn further southeast, running headlong toward von Karpf, allowing the German to “cross their tee” at 5700 yards. Roon puts another 8.2-inch into Oleg’s hull, crushing bulkhead 3A while further gashing her hull. Seawater pours in as her top speed drops to 15 knots. Oleg returns fire with her forward 6-inch, holing Roon again amidships. Askold lands a hit on Stettin’s aft starboard mount, disabling the 4.1-inch and killing the crew. Von Karpf wonders where his damn destroyers are.

 

Roon, firing everything at near point-blank range, misses the slow-moving Oleg. Oleg’s crew tries unsuccessfully to stanch the flow of seawater, but their efforts, at least for now, are unsuccessful. She continues firing at her tormenter, Roon, but misses at just 3400 yards.

 

Askold puts a 6-inch round into Stettin’s hull, destroying a bulkhead and starting catastrophic flooding. Seconds later, Bogatyr hits her in her aft magazine; an attempt to flood fails and Stettin is destroyed in a massive explosion. There are no survivors.

 

2nd Battle Of Gotland C
Stettin is destroyed by a magazine hit.

 

As bits of Stettin rain down on Roon, von Karpf is left to take stock. His nightmare scenario has taken form, and now he needs to put some water between himself and the three Russian cruisers, hopeful that the destroyers return to provide a screen for his escape. The Russians continue to pound Roon, however, and she soon loses both of her main battery and suffers another hit into her forward engine room, slowing her precariously.

 

For her part, Roon resumes pounding Oleg. Another bulkhead hit and a further hull strike cuts her speed to just three knots, her deck nearly awash. She fails her morale check, and tries to inch away. At 0900, her last chance to repair the bulkhead damage passes without success and Oleg sinks under Bakhirev’s feet.

 

Moments later, Bogatyr lands a pair of 6-inch on Roon, yielding a ½-hull box and another engineering hit. This, together with her still unrepaired engineering hit, puts her dead in the water and disables her 5.9-inch secondary. She’s effectively a sitting duck.

 

The loss of Oleg and the unknown fate of Admiral Bakhirev, together with the rapidly approaching German destroyers, has Askold and Bogatyr breaking off and headed south. Minutes later, Roon is able to restore power and slowly begin to return home, escorted by G7 and G8.

 

Four hours later, the Russian minelayer Onega arrived on scene to recover Oleg’s survivors, a waterlogged Admiral Bakhirev among them.

 

Results

 

Two light cruisers lost, one Russian and one German.

 

Bakhirev had some success once he closed the range to 6000 yards (or less), but longer range fire was largely ineffective. Stettin’s 4.1-inch and her poor fire-control seemed to render her nearly useless. Roon, as is normal around here, suffered abysmal gunnery at the longer ranges.

 

German maneuver was poor, especially with their destroyers. They turned away at precisely the wrong moment, taking themselves out of the action for nearly forty minutes. The Russians‘ fear of a pair of DDs struck me as irrational. In my experience, only vast shoals of WWI destroyers should be feared, as individual DDs, or even small groups, frequently prove ineffective on the attack.

 

I’ve no idea what happened with Hopman’s force. My understanding is that the impatience of the German player had him wandering off to the north, never encountering any of the enemy. Presumably the Russians were able to sweep in and drive off the minelayers Hopman had been sent to protect. A dull time was had by that part of the game group.

 

I apologize for the tediousness of the narrative. The notes were quite convoluted, although we did produce a decent map of the force movements (see attached, if I can remember how).


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#313 W. Clark

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 07:27 PM

That was a good AAR. I especially like the Russian term, "Cruiser Brigade". My cartoon brain immediately pictures a late fifty's, early sixty's group of Wolfman Jack listeners getting their weekly car parade down Main Street formally organized. I think I just dated myself.

 

WMC


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#314 healey36

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Posted 23 September 2023 - 09:02 PM

I was a Dr. Demento fan, myself. Crazy stuff out of California, KPPC, if I recall. Somehow managed to hear it around 0100 each evening on my cheesy little AM radio. Funny how I could get a station in California, but couldn’t hear the tail-end of the ballgame broadcast from my local station just a few miles down the road.

Cruiser Brigades...I’ll have to pull down Russian Imperial Navy OOB; being a great land power, the Navy is/was just an extension of the Army, I suppose. I seem to remember that capital ships were organized in "brigades", destroyers in "divisions".


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#315 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 09:14 AM

That was a great AAR, Healey, on a more unusual battle.


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#316 healey36

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 02:36 PM

If I'm honest, Peter, I'd always turned my nose up regarding the Baltic and the Russians. Been doing some reading of late, however, and it turns out the ships and the personalities of the theater are pretty interesting. There was quite a bit with strategic and operational implications going on there, at least until the Russians folded the tent. My recollection is that Bakhirev got himself shot by the Bolsheviks after the war.

 

 


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#317 Kenny Noe

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Posted 27 September 2023 - 06:31 AM

Great job Paul!!  Thanks for the read!!



#318 healey36

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Posted 27 September 2023 - 11:43 AM

Thanks, Kenny. Moving to WWII in the Pacific next. Haven't played much straight GQIII for quite awhile...I'm going to need to brush up.



#319 Peter M. Skaar

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Posted 28 September 2023 - 12:46 PM

I painted the Slava for the GHQ catalog.  She was involved and sunk/grounded in the Gulf of Riga as I recall.

51070836698_5841dd2ae9.jpg


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#320 simanton

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Posted 28 September 2023 - 10:34 PM

I believe you are correct.







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