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Small Guns Damaging Big Ships


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#1 Garydee

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:43 AM

A little rule that I came up with. It allows a destroyer to slightly damage a battleship. Basically when you're not capable of hurting a ship, use this rule: Weapon is 1/4 [C*S*T] with the hull not able to be damaged by these small weapons .25 and .75 rounded down to 0 and .5, respectively. Thoughts?



#2 Phil Callcott

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:08 PM

Hi,

 

Small destroyer guns of 4"/4.7" calibre simply could not penetrate a battleship's main armour.

 

They could take out tertiary gun mounts, maybe even a poorly armoured secondary turret, but the main turrets, and citadel would be immune.

 

You just have to accept that once its torpedoes are expended a destroyer may as well throw stones for all the effect that its puny guns may have against a battleship.

 

There is one slim hope, and that is that is if a destroyer manages to start a floatplane/hangar fire that cannot be put out, which would result in the total loss of the victim.

 

I've never managed it against a battleship but on one memorable occasion an Italian heavy cruiser suffered that fate.

 

Regards, Phil



#3 Garydee

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 06:46 PM

Hi,

 

Small destroyer guns of 4"/4.7" calibre simply could not penetrate a battleship's main armour.

 

They could take out tertiary gun mounts, maybe even a poorly armoured secondary turret, but the main turrets, and citadel would be immune.

 

You just have to accept that once its torpedoes are expended a destroyer may as well throw stones for all the effect that its puny guns may have against a battleship.

 

There is one slim hope, and that is that is if a destroyer manages to start a floatplane/hangar fire that cannot be put out, which would result in the total loss of the victim.

 

I've never managed it against a battleship but on one memorable occasion an Italian heavy cruiser suffered that fate.

 

Regards, Phil

 

I hear you, Phil. However, GQ III is supposed to be a naval simulation. If the rulebook can contain detailed rules about smoke from coal ships(LOL!) I think the game should have the option of a lucky shot when David meets Goliath.  HE shells on decks cause havoc. Invulnerable ships do not exist in the real world.  :)



#4 Phil Callcott

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 06:48 PM

Hi,

 

GQ III is supposed to be a naval simulation.

Granted, and as such they should reflect historical reality.

 

I think the game should have the option of a lucky shot when David meets Goliath. 

They do, see my comment regarding a "hangar fire".

 

HE shells on decks cause havoc.

Agreed, but the key phrase is "on decks", hence the risk to tertiary (AA guns) with little or no armour plate.

A battleship's core would be invulnerable to small calibre guns.

 

Invulnerable ships do not exist in the real world. 

Nor do destroyer guns capable of penetrating a battleship's armour.

Remember that HMS Rodney was pounding the Bismarck with 16" guns at point blank range but could not sink her.

 
Battleships in WWII could not be sunk by gunfire alone, those that were lost finally succumbed to either bombs, torpedos or scuttling.
 
Regards, Phil


#5 Garydee

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 08:21 PM

 

Nor do destroyer guns capable of penetrating a battleship's armour.

Remember that HMS Rodney was pounding the Bismarck with 16" guns at point blank range but could not sink her.

 
Battleships in WWII could not be sunk by gunfire alone, those that were lost finally succumbed to either bombs, torpedos or scuttling.
 
Regards, Phil
 

I've never mentioned that a destroyer should be able to penetrate a battleship's armor. Not once. I'm just looking for a few lucky shots that can cause some discomfort for the battleship.



#6 Phil Callcott

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:03 AM

"I've never mentioned that a destroyer should be able to penetrate a battleship's armour. Not once. I'm just looking for a few lucky shots that can cause some discomfort for the battleship."

 

Sorry, you've lost me.

 

Without its armour being penetrated how can the battleship suffer "discomfort" other than by minor damage to float planes, tertiary guns, and criticals? 

 
All of which are already covered by the rules.
 
Does catching fire, losing fire control or suffering a rudder jam not count as "discomfort" for you?
 
Regards Phil


#7 Garydee

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:15 AM

 

"I've never mentioned that a destroyer should be able to penetrate a battleship's armour. Not once. I'm just looking for a few lucky shots that can cause some discomfort for the battleship."

 

Sorry, you've lost me.

 

Without its armour being penetrated how can the battleship suffer "discomfort" other than by minor damage to float planes, tertiary guns, and criticals? 

 
All of which are already covered by the rules.
 
Does catching fire, losing fire control or suffering a rudder jam not count as "discomfort" for you?
 
Regards Phil

 

 

I'm a noob to the rules. Am I misreading them? I thought small guns(6" or smaller) could do no damage to any part of the battleship, even the FP. Can you help me out here?



#8 Phil Callcott

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:47 PM

Hi,

 

OK, open GQ III Edition to page"x" near the front of the book.

 

At the top of the page is a Ship Log for HMS Glasgow, a Royal Navy Town Class Light Cruiser.

 

The ship's stats are shown with the bow being to the left of the page.

 

You will notice that the main armament and hull boxes are surrounded by bold boxes, the bold indicates that the contents are protected by armour plate.

 

At the top right of the Ship Log are "CA (CL)", these indicate the hull and turret armour respectively.

 

Anything outside these boxes is unprotected by armour, for example the torpedo tubes and the 4" secondary AA guns.

 

If you then refer to the Italian Gunfire Combat Result Table you will see that a destroyer's 4.7” will only penetrate CA armour at point blank and CL armour one range row up.

 

Look at the WW II Gunfire Damage and Critical Hit Tables on the same sheet.

 

See the bold boxes on them? These indicate what vital parts are protected by armour when resolving damage.

 

When it come to firing at a Battleship with 4.7” guns you may notice when cross referencing 4.7” (along the top of the Gunfire CRT) down to BA.BB armour (down the left-hand side) that the Equivalent Damage Rolls box reads “Critical . Secondary. Tertiary”, which means that these are  the only parts vulnerable to this gun.

 

You need to read through the gunnery section starting on page 1 - 7 for the full gen.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards, Phil

 



#9 Garydee

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:08 PM

Thanks! I see what you're saying now. It says in the rulebook that - - means that it does "no significant damage". What in the Sam Hill is that supposed to mean? Does that mean zero damage or do you use the rules for non-penetration?



#10 Phil Callcott

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 01:21 PM

Hi,

 

"No significant damage" meant a dent in the plating, some chipped paint, a couple of broken handrails, ship's boats destroyed and maybe a few crew casualties from shell splinters or small fires contained by fire control teams, but nothing that would affect the ships fighting ability.

 

It effectively translates into no damage, zip, zero, nothing, nowt.

 

That was the reality of small calibre guns firing at many inches of armour plate.

 

Regards, Phil






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