26 replies to this topic

[W. Clark]

I am never as happy as when I'm on campaign. That is not the way I would describe most of the naval gamers I've met. But I too play scenarios. So, you've wore out just about every historical scenario you know of, and you would like something new.  Well, if you like the Pacific then ODGW has you covered. You can easily use all of ODGW's three Pacific Campaigns to generate scenarios with minimal effort on your part. You have three different time periods with different situations to pick from. You want convoys? Maybe just an old fashion surface brawl. It's there along with sweeps, patrols and carrier missions.

 

SS (Sudden Storm) puts you in a what if war between Japan and the USA in the late thirties.  The UK and the Dutch can get involved defending their neutrality so there is a lot of possibilities. Basically, you use the campaign to decide the OB you pick your force from and to assign it an objective and mission to accomplish. The campaign engagement set will determine your start speed, wind force and direction, are there squalls or fog? What is the relative bearing from one opponent to the other and how far apart they are at the start, Force speed. Moon state and on and on with almost infinite variations even if you use the same OB more than once. I mean it will decide how long smoke lasts if you want it to.

 

DTMB (Defending the Malay Barrier) pits you as the Japanese or the ABDA in late 1941 through March 42. Daylight surface actions are common, and you can very well have night actions too. Radar is limited and early. You can incorporate the historically omnipresent Japanese LBA (Land Based Air) if you want to with a few die rolls. The Allies have several start options for their OB.

 

​TSC (The Solomons Campaign) puts you in or about Iron Bottom Sound in August through November 1942. Surface scenarios are night actions and daylight fights are carrier battles.

 

​Any way you cut it you end up with a historically plausible scenarios that will vary almost every time you play them.

 

Game on

 

WMC

[Jim O'Neil]

The list has been dead for weeks! So here is a thought: The French Navy considered STRASBOURG a battleship, not a Battlecruiser. So how does she stack up against other battleships? I am sure she can hold her own against a KONGO or a GUILIO CESARE, but I'd think SCHARNHORST would have been awkward at closer ranges needed for reliable hits and most other modern battleships with 14-16" guns seem over matching. Even some of the older rebuilt battleships [Queen Elizabeth, IDAHO etc.] would be very tough, although STRASBOURG could certainly out run them. 

 

So if you feel like it, play out a scenario  between STRASBOURG and some these other ships and let us know how it went.

[W. Clark]

Strasbourg's BB belt armor (unlike her sister's BC belt armor) makes her a good match for the Scharnhorst's 11-inch MB. But the Scharnhorst's always come in a pair until mid 42 and that is just too powerful. A squadron action where the French have cruisers and their super destroyers gives a better balance IMHO. The Strasbourg keeps the Scharnhorst's attention while you try to win with your cruisers and DDs. Even if you give the French something of a numbers advantage the Germans shoot 2 bands better. But if you can work in close then your torps are better. Each side has advantages that do not mirror the other. That means that it gets down to tactics and luck. A fun combo IMHO.

 

WMC

[healey36]

They sent Strasbourg out for the search for Spee. Her patrol was quite a bit removed from the German's location, but what if? Could have been interesting (with a bit of imagination).

[W. Clark]

Not if you are the PB IMHO. Its 13 inch versus your 11 inch and BB versus your CA armor and the French have at least a 4-knot speed advantage. You want a night fight at knife range so your torps might even the score. But it going to happen in 39 and German torps have the same problems as the American torps in that time period. Good luck.

 

WMC

[healey36]

Yeah, but it’s the French...

[Kenny Noe]

Yeah, but it’s the French...

 

Bwahahahahahahahaha

[W. Clark]

That is true. I suppose it could be argued that the Germans only need to evade action until mid-June 40 when the French cry uncle Herman to the Germans and dock their fleet. But where is the fun in that?

 

WMC

[Jim O'Neil]

Sorry, but the French fought valiantly, confused by the changing guidance  of their changing leadership. 

The French were among the first users of Radar , equipping NORMANDY (cruise ship) with a radar to find and avoid Icebergs in 1938 or so.

They were stymied by the limited power of the available  electronic tubes/valves, most of which were not powerful enough to make radar really useful until 1940.

Their night doctrine may not have been up to RN standards, but it was better than the US & Italian Navies.  The PB would have been in serious difficulty with any run in with STRASBOURG.

The PB 11" guns are less powerful than SCHRANHORSTS and STRASBOURG is well armored. The PB will not suffer 13" hits well at all, with perhaps 4 such hits putting the PBs Hors de combat.

[W. Clark]

I agree. The Marine Francais is not the French Army of 1940. But Dunkerque with its BC belt armor is a much more even match against a PB than Strasbourg is.

 

WMC

[W. Clark]

Going Dutch

It is Turn 2 (1-15 January 1942) and the ABDA has yet to form. The Royal Netherlands Navy Far East Squadron is operating under Dutch command and attempting to obstruct IJN operations against the islands of Eastern Borneo and Celebes through the Makassar strait by sortieing a sweep against the Eastern Attack Force’s Center Axis.

Capital ship options have been agreed on and the Dutch have selected the division of Pocket Battleships (the Cruiser D design and IMHO the most realistic Dutch capital ship option) as their bonus reinforcement.

The Striking Force of the Royal Netherlands Navy under Rear Admiral Doorman (RNN) is comprised of:

1^st Cruiser Division: RAdm Doorman            2^nd Cruiser Division

CA HrMs Harrlem FF                                       CL HrMS De Ruyter DF

CA HrMs Delft                                                 CL HrMs Java

CA HrMs Maastricht                                       CL HrMs Tromp

Destroyer Group 1                                          Destroyer Group 2

DD HrMs Evertsen DL                                     DD HrMs Banckert DL

DD HrMs Van Ghent                                       DD HrMs Kortenaer

DD HrMs Van Nes                                           DD HrMs Piet Hein

                                                                        DD HrMs Witte de With

The Watch roll was a 10 (all DR are D12 unless listed otherwise) and that placed the start time at 2000 hours (vs a convoy) or full dark. The weather modifier was a 12 and added 2 to all weather rolls. The Wind roll was a 2 plus 2 resulting in a Force 3 wind of 10 knots; smoke will last 1 GT.

The Cloud Cover roll (D6) was a 1 plus 2 resulting in a 3 or no cloud cover.

The wind direction roll was a 4 and caused the wind to be from the north.

The moon state roll was a 6 resulting in a quarter moon.

Max visibility is 20,000 yards, but your night acquisition DRs will determine your visibility.

The Dutch are on heading of 315 degrees (DR of 10) at 25 knots.

Relative bearing to the IJN was directly ahead (DR of 6) and the IJN was heading 255 degrees (crossing at 90 degrees on a DR of 11).

The EAF under Rear Admiral Takagi was comprised of:

3^rd Battle Squadron                            2^nd DesFlot: RAdm Tanaka

IJNS BB Kongo DF                               IJNS CL Jintsu FL

IJNS BB Haruna                                  15^th Destroyer Division          16^th Destroyer Division

5^th Cruiser Squadron: RAdm Takagi  IJNS DD Natsushio DL            IJNS DD Amatsukaze

IJNS CA Haguro SF                              IJNS DD Hayashio                   IJNS DD Hatsukaze

IJNS CA Myoko DF                              IJNS DD Kuroshio                   11^th Carrier Division

IJNS CA Nachi                                     IJNS DD Oyashio                     IJNS AV Chitose & 8 AP

The Dutch are in three columns with 3,000 yards between columns. The cruiser divisions were in the center column with DesGrps 1 and 2 to P&S respectively. The DD columns were echeloned back 1,000 yards. The Dutch made 3-night acquisition DR (1 per column) and rolled from port to starboard 8, 12 and 5 (not good, I hope their star shells work better).

The EAF is in 2 groups. The cruisers led the bats in a column and the DesFlot was in a column 3,000 yards behind with the APs and AV trailing them in 2 columns. Takagi’s and Tanaka’s flagships made the night acquisition DR for the IJN (rank hath its privileges). The DR were 9 and 4 respectively. The EAF’s speed is 11 knots.

 

As you can see there are some good things and some not so good for either side in the set up. There were roughly 9 DR to set this up and only 1 was a D6. That means that any or all of this could change drastically with different set up DR even if you kept everything the same as far as OOB and sailing formations.

 

For those of you who don’t have the Dutch PBs, just use your German PBs in their place and ask for forgiveness later.

 

The Dutch are trying to abort the convoy as failure to do so will cause the convoy’s objective to fall to the Japanese. The Japanese need 6 of the 8 APs to be intact to win if their morale holds together.

 

I’d advise using force morale. Both sides have admirals present and their morale is regular because of it. If you lose your admirals, then your morale reduces to green.

WMC

 

PS I forgot squalls and sea haze. A Dr of 2 means no sea haze but a DR of 10 causes squalls. I use a D6 to determine the number of squalls on the table at the start and I rolled a 1. I roll another D6 to determine squall size. 1-2 = small 2,000 x 2,000 yards. 3-4 = medium 4,000 x 4,000 yards and 5-6 = large 6,000 x 6,000 yards. I then roll for each squall to determine how far downwind it is and how far into the table. It is quite possible for squalls to end up co-located and I just add them together if that happens, resulting in a much larger squall. 

[healey36]

I still can't get past the French design notion of dividing the turrets of the main battery with an armored bulkhead down the middle. It's hard to imagine one side surviving in functional form after an incapacitating hit on the opposite side of the turret. Perhaps this was done to improve gun crew survivability, not function.

 

It's too bad there aren't more, possibly any, historical examples of French naval prowess during those early years of the war. Putting aside their doctrine and naval designs/architecture, how solid was their crew training? Morale? Leadership at sea?   

[W. Clark]

I seem to recall that an initial 16-inch hit (from Massachusetts?) on the Jean Bart's sole 15-inch quad turret only knocked out one side and it took a second hit to destroy the turret completely. Don't quote me on this as this is off the top of my head and I need to research it to confirm my fading memory. I agree that I prefer separate turrets as a design. But the French were complying with treaty limits and trying to get as much bang for their buck tonnage wise as they could and that was their design solution to the problem. They didn't try to mount 16-inch guns as they realized they could not get 30 knots, 16-inch guns and adequate armor on 35,000 tons.

 

WMC

[Jim O'Neil]

WMC, DUNKERQUE is well out of any pocket battleships class. It has torpedo bulkheads, almost three times the displacement and much more powerful guns. The seetakt radar is only used for firing solutions, so in any close up battle the odds heavily favor DUNKERQUE.  German radar doctrine was unique if you remember... If the Pocket battleship has the opportunity, running is its best chance.  The 9" belt armor is enough to deflect the 11" shell at an angle while the 3-4" belt on a Pocket Battleships isn't going to deflect a 330 mm shell being fired at it. 

 

Healy36; the French deigns used a lot of novel things for their time, some of which worked better than others. The Quad turret was a trade off as WMC said and has not been repeated by any navy to my knowledge. The water proof filling the French put in their hull side compartments and blisters on some ships seems to have worked quite well. The long and heavy shell for diameter was quite successful and copied by the US according to some sources. The French 8" gun was given a 300 odd pound shell before the USN developed a 335 pound shell, but data on it and if and where it was deployed is a mystery that even John Jordan has been able to find anything on. Many of their designs were "different" and some , like MOGADOR and VOLTA didn't pan out well, while others like the La Glassonaire class light cruisers were successes. 

[W. Clark]

I'm talking game balance, not real world. The 11-inch will penetrate BC armor (per the CRT) when it does not penetrate BB armor. In a situation (probably at night) where the PB gets the first shots in then it has a chance (although not a great one) versus Dunkerque while it would have none versus Strasbourg's BB belt. I agree that running is best but in daylight the Dunkerque's/Strasbourg's 29-30 knots versus the PB's 26 knots does give me a great hope of getting away. This is as it should be IMHO. The Dunkerque's were designed specifically to run down and destroy the PBs.

 

WMC

[Jim O'Neil]

I ran a short scenario of a PB versus DUNKERQUE at night. DUNKERQUE spotted the PB first at 8,000 yards, but then whiffed its first salvo. The PB promptly hit a Hull and two Main Turrets which do nothing as the Turrets are BA armor. 

The PB hit twice more taking a secondary and starting a fire in the FP area which was promptly extinguished.

The DUNKERQUE managed three hits over the next two turns which became 9 hits!  as the 13" does 3 for each hit versus a CA class ship. That took 4 hull, two secondary guns, TT  and both main battery turrets.

Her next salvo rolled two 2s ... 12 more hits ... I didn't bother rolling them, the PB was toast.

[W. Clark]

It sounds like the reason behind the Dunkerque's design has been fulfilled.

 

WMC

[W. Clark]

Teacher Versus Student

(War on the cheap or Cry Singapore)

DTMB GT3 15-31 January 1942

The ABDA has just formed, and the Allies can combine forces and share CDs. For the sake of this scenario the Allies are presumed to have rolled a 7 and received HMS Emerald at Singapore as a 1 GT reinforcement. The Allies are also presumed to have rolled a 10-12 on the watch roll giving them a nighttime contact. In this case I am going with 2000 hours as the start time. This a standard start and no capital ship options are involved.

The Weather Modifier result was a 2 and in the WAF area this means a -1 to all weather rolls.

Wind Force roll was 5 and -1 gives a Force 4 at 15 knots while the direction roll was a 5 making it Northeasterly. The Cloud Cover roll was a 5 and -1 made it 2 layers and cloudy.

Smoke lasts 1 GT. Sea Haze and Squall rolls of 5 means there is no sea haze or squalls at start.

The Moon State roll was a 7 resulting in a quarter moon. Max visibility is 20,000 yards but your night acquisition rolls will determine your visibility.

 

Rear Admiral Palliser (RN) and top dog since Admiral Phillips’ death on 10 December 1941 does not want a gun fight. He is looking to spring a torpedo ambush on the WAF and thus take Britain’s star naval pupil back to school.

 

The WESGROUP Sweep is steaming at 25 knots on a heading of due North (DR 7). The relative bearing to the Japanese convoy is 4 points to port (DR 5). The IJN convoy’s heading is 270 degrees and crossing the British Tee (DR 10). The IJN convoy’s speed is 11 knots.

WESGROUP is comprised of:

1^st Cruiser Division: RAdm Palliser    Destroyer Division 1   Destroyer Division 2

CA HMS Exeter FF                               DD HMS Electra DL     DD HMS Scout DL

CL HMS Mauritius                              DD HMS Encounter    DD HMS Stronghold

CL HMS Emerald                                 DD HMS Express         DD HMS Tenedos

2^nd Cruiser Division                            DD HMC Jupiter          DD HMS Thanet

CL HMS Danae DF

CL HMS Dragon

CL HMS Durban

WAF (M) Convoy against Bangka Island under VAdm Ozawa (Veteran) is comprised of:

CA IJNS Choakai FF                             4^th Destroyer Division            8^th Destroyer Division

7^th Cruiser Sqdn: RAdm Kurita          DD IJNS Arashi DL                   DD IJNS Oshio DL

CA IJNS Kumano SF                            DD IJNS Hagikaze                    DD IJNS Arashio

CA IJNS Suzuya                                   DD IJNS Maikaze                     DD IJNS Asashio

CA IJNS Mikuma DF                            DD IJNS Nowake                     DD IJNS Michishio

CA IJNS Mogami                                 AV IJNS Sanyo Maru               8 AP

The WAF has also sortied convoys against Kota Bharu-Singora and Endau in lower tiers this GT and the Allied sweep must get past the Bangka Island convoy to get at them. Ozawa’s veteran rating gives him a plus to make contact and coupled with the modifier from the AV makes it unlikely that he will fail to contact the sweep. Had we actually rolled the watch roll and failed to get a night contact then my advice campaign wise would be to pop smoke and withdraw as soon as you see the Japanese. You do not want this fight in daylight.

 

This scenario has actually happened twice and the Brits gutted the WAF both times with torpedoes. The Brits had the PoW in second scenario in place of Exeter and were able to mop up as both Fuso’s went down from torpedoes and Singapore never fell.

 

The Brits get 2 chances here. First, roll better night acquisition DRs than the Japanese (best). If that fails then use your radar to get in position, illuminate with star-shell and los your torpedoes. Then pop smoke and run like hell. If that fails, pop smoke and run like hell because hell is coming for you.

 

WMC

[Jim O'Neil]

Here is an attempt to keep up with WMC ...

 

13 June 1940  Mediterranean NE of Bizerte, Tunesia some 150 miles

Wind s Force 3 going north. Visibility is 26,000yards. No Squals, no Haze, 1 layer of broken clouds at 10,000 feet.

 

Intelligence: Adm Darlan discovers that the Italian BC Guilio Cesare has had some engine problems and was held up in Tripoli. She should be moving to Taranto as soon as the issue is fixed and he desires to put the RM in place. He details STRASBOURG to depart the Atlantic pocket battleship hunt and move as quickly as possible to Bizerte to refuel and be joined by a ready escort of Contre-torpilleurs.

 

French - Course 085º Speed 19 knots

Strasbourg

Chevelier Paul

Epervier

Vauquelin

 

Chevalier Paul and Epervier are 1,000 yards n from of and 1,500 yards to the left and right of Strasbourg. Vauquelin is trailing Strasbourg by 2,000 yards.  The funnel gasses hide the Italian force initially until Strasbourg was able to ID them from her top.

 

Cesare has repaired her issues and has an escort of 2 Torpedo Boats.

Super Marina has insisted on a better escort, so held Cesare up until 3 DDs could make it to Tripoli and refuel.

They have started out through the Mine field at first light.

 

Italians - Course 40º Speed 18 knots

Guilio Cesare

Ascari

Camica Nera

Lanciere

Lupo

Partenope

 

The Italian force is sailing with the two TBs 2,000 yards to the front of Cesare and 2,000 yards to either side of her bow looking for signs of submarines. Acari and Camica Nera are 2,000 yards to either flank of Cesare and Lanciere is due aft about 1,500 yards.

 

The French spot (Acquire) the Italians at 0900, but the Italians do no not see the French initially due to the funnel gasses obscuring the spotting. It is 0912 before Lanciere spots and signals Cesare and 0915 before the Cesare confirms the spotting, at which time the French are steaming toward the Italians at close to top speed for the Strasbourg. The range is 22,800 yards and closing.

 

Cesare commences working up to full sped and Lanciere gets out from behind her. Cesare decides to try out their fine fire control system. with a set of two salvoes, first of three rounds and the second of two rounds. They are off a bit, but not badly … they choose to hold fire and monitor the range.

 

After an hour, the Strasbourg has closed the range some 2,500 yards. It s now 20,300 yards and Strasbourg decides to take a shot. 

She hits with one shot, taking out the Port secondary one back from the rear of the ship. Cesare responds to no effect. A slow exchange of gunfire starts, Strasbourg’s second salvo misses, as does Cesare’s. On her third broadside Strasbourg hits again, taking Cesare’s rear triple main gun turret out. Cesare’s return fire falls close aboard, but does not hit. On the fourth Broadside Strasbourg hits again, taking a hull box and slowing Cesare slightly. Cesare finally scores a critical hit above Strasbourg’s engineering spaces, but the armor prevents the damage.  Strasbourg fires its fifth broadside to try and slow Cesare’s escape, but misses as does Cesare. The sixth broadside scores big with three hits. They knock out Cesare’s remaining aft turret and also her forward twin turret as well as another hull hit. She is doomed without a miracle as she can only manage 18 knots now.  Cesare’s return fire misses. Strasbourg’s seventh broadside hits twice more, setting a fire in her aircraft stores and opening her hull yet again. Cesare is down to 12 knots. Her destroyers make smoke to shield their crippled charge. Her last return fire from her remaining triple turret misses. Strasbourg turns to starboard to keep the range and deal with the destroyers. She directs 4 secondaries against Camica Nera and six against Ascari. Ascari takes a hull hit and Camica Nera escapes with no hits. Vauquelin fires on Lanciere but misses. The Italian destroyers cannot respond as the range is too great. The smoke dissipates as the destroyers come about to replenish the screen and Strasbourg get’s a somewhat obscured shot at Cesare scoring two more hits; yet another hull box and a critical to Cesare’s Fire control. Cesare is struggling to make four knots and  the unnecessary crew is ordered to board the Torpedo Boats. Crew losses have been heavy in the turrets.  The three Contre-torpilleurs close some and take on the Italian Destroyers. Ascari is hit again, and Lanciere is also; Ascari loses her DCT and her rudder is jammed , but is centered. Lanciere loses her after TT and Camica Nera again avoids any damage. The situation is hopeless, and the Admiral has Camica Nera come along side to take himself and as many of the crew as possible off. Ascari is ordered to withdraw and Lanciere makes one last smoke screen run before going alongside to remove anyone remaining, the Italians torpedo Cesare, sinking her and withdraw at speed under smoke. While the Contre-torpilleurs could catch them, it would leave Strasbourg without escorts just to rub in the defeat, so the French accept their victory and withdraw. 

 

Strasbourg has a definite advantage over Gullio Cesare beyond 18,000 yards  and up to 24,000 yards, but especially in the 21,000 yards range band where she hits on a 1 &10 with penetrating hits while Cesare only hits on a 1 and is not penetrating Strasbourg’s armor.

[W. Clark]

Even a rebuilt WWI Dreadnought is going to fare poorly against third generation dreadnought of similar displacement. Strasbourg had better armor, guns and a speed advantage. The Cesare needs to hide behind smoke until the range gets down to 18,000 yards and even then, I believe the EDR favors Strasbourg. The only advantage the RM has is that it shoots a bit better band for band than the French do when all things are even.

 

WMC