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#1 Ron Stewart

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:15 AM

I'd like to make a couple of comments on the rules as I have read them so far. I've played a couple of games of GQ in the dim and distant, so I am really new to these rules (and WWII naval wargames).I was OK until I hit gunnery. It would have been nice to be reminded of the range scales at the beginning. It took me ages to find them again in commissioning.The initial stages of gunnery were OK. I was especially pleased to see the example using the Trieste. What a shame then that this could not be carried on through the rest of the Gunnery rules. Then came Equivalent Hits. Examples here would have been REALLY useful. A double shame as we moved away from the Triese onto something else entirely. I still don't understand much of what has been written. I think I'll have to go back to the start again. The relationship between Direct hits, equivalent hits and their interaction with the Gunfire Damage table is also a thing of wonder at the moment.I guess what I'm saying is a page or two showing a full worked example, would have been great. Any chance of something added to the download area or this forum?

#2 Bob Benge

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 06:04 AM

Great comments! This what we like to see so we can make improvements to our game systems. I am sure Lonnie and the crew will get something up in the member upload area to address this issue. Thank you! :)

#3 gregoryk

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 10:34 AM

ruffair,Lonnie Gill informed me prior to his overseas trip, literally while he was waiting to board the plane, that he had not had time to answer your questions and comments. He promised to do so upon his return around 2 February. In the meantime, there may be others on the list who can address your concerns.Cheers,Gregory

#4 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 03:57 AM

ruffair,Just got back, so let me try to provide some clarification.The GUNFIRE CRTs determine when a hit is made. But, as we all know there is a vast span in ship sizes and shell sizes. Most naval rules try to solve this using mathematical solutions which express shells and targets as mathematical equivalents. In GENERAL QUARTERS, I have taken a different approach. Guns and targets are divided into equivalent classes based on the main batteries carried by ship type. A destroyer 5" gun hit on a DD is "nominal" and does one equivalent hit worth of damage. Hits on different types of targets are resolved using the EQUIVALENT HITS table.The amount of damage done is a result of the relation between shell size and target size. A 6" hit will generally do less damage on a battleship and more on a DD than it would on a cruiser. But, the functional damage result - in terms of degrading the target's capacity - involves more than simply the size of the shell or weight of explosive. Example: a 16" shell from Rodney may destroy a 5" gun mount much more completely than a 5" hit, but in game terms, both hits put the mount out of action. Further, much of the damage caused by shell hits resulted from splinters which often traveled far from the location of the hit. And, we've all read about large shells going right through an unarmored target such as a DD without even exploding. All these variables are dealt with using equivalent hits. An equivalent hit represents one specific damage effect on the target. Thus, a larger class of shell hit may result in multiple equivalent hits, while it may take several smaller class of shell hits to equate to an equivalent hit. This concept is further explained in the Designer's notes on page xii and the Equivalent Hits section on page 1-9.Like many things, this process is more complex to explain in writing than it is in practice. In a game, it's straight forward and intuitive. When a DD sized battery (such as a 4.7" or 5") gets two hits on a DD class target, skip the EQUIVALENT HITS table and roll a D12 for each hit on the WW II GUNFIRE DAMAGE table to determine the damage effect of the hits. If a larger class battery hits a smaller class target, more damage is likely. Thus, when an 8" battery gets two hits on a DD sized target, read down the column to the EQUIVALENT HITS table and cross reference with the target class. Multiply the number of hits by the modifer: 2 hits x 2 (for a DD target) = 4 equivalent hits. Roll four D12s on the damage table to determine the damage to the DD class target. Conversely, if a DD class battery gets two hits on a cruiser class (CA - CS) target, less than nominal damage is done. Small shell on bigger target = refer to the EQUIVALENT HITS table. In this case: 2 hits x = one equivalent hit. Roll one D12 on the damage table.Should the net total of equivalent hits end in a , roll again. An odd result = the is a full equivalent hit; an even result = no significant damage. Example: USS Helena gets three hits on the IJN Fubuki DD. Three 6" hits x 1 (for a DD target) on the EQUIVALENT HITS table = 4. Roll again: an odd roll = 5 equivalent hits; an even roll = 4 equivalent hits.Once you've done it a couple of times, it becomes second nature and, I think, quicker and less work than having to solve attack factor vs defense or target factor equations with every gunnery attack. Finally, here's a full example of play:HMS Ajax fires on the Italian DD Dardo at 12,000 yards. Her captain rolls four D12s (four pairs of 6"guns) and gets a 1, 7, 9 and 10. Both the 1 and the 10 result in a hit for a total of two hits. Two 6" hits x 1 for a DD target on the EQUIVALENT HITS table results in three equivalent hits. Three D12s are rolled on the WW II GUNFIRE DAMAGE table. Dardo fires back and rolls two D12s (two pairs of 4.7" guns) and gets a 1 and a 5. The 1 is a hit, but 1 x (CL class target) on the EQUIVALENT HITS table = . Dardo's captain rolls again and gets an even result. The 4.7" hit does no significant damage to Ajax. If the result had been odd, one equivalent hit would have resulted. A D12 would be rolled for the equivalent hit. The Dardo cannot penetrate CL armor, but fortunately for her captain, a 2 is rolled on the WW II GUNFIRE DAMAGE table, disabling one of Ajax's unarmored torpedo tube mounts.Hopefully, this will clear up the gunnery process for you. You will also find some interesting discussion on some of the more esoteric aspects of small caliber hits on large armored targets in several of the other Forum topics.

#5 Martin Jerred

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 07:19 AM

The only thing I could add would be that it might have been less confusing if "Hits" had been called "Brackets" or "on target salvoes" or similar, then "Equivalent Hits" could have just been "Hits".So your eample would become:HMS Ajax fires on the Italian DD Dardo at 12,000 yards. Her captain rolls four D12s (four pairs of 6"guns) and gets a 1, 7, 9 and 10. Both the 1 and the 10 result in "On Target Salvoes" for a total of two "Brackets". Two 6" "Salvoes" x 1 for a DD target on the HITS table results in three Hits...I know it's not exactly the concept you've used to calculate but the double use of the term "Hits" has caused confusion with newbies ;) ZippeePS see comment on ammo thread

#6 Dave Franklin

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 01:45 PM

You could call them straddles (same as brackets no doubt), and you'd be back to GQ1/2 terminology.

#7 Martin Jerred

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:39 AM

Indeed, exactly what I meant but I was having a blonde moment and couldn't for the life of me remember the term "straddle". :ohmy: My experience with newbies is that if you take the double use of the term "hit" out of the equation, the mechanism is immediately grasped by even the most nautically challenged.Zippee

#8 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:59 PM

Zip and co_diver,I agree that using "hits" in two contexts seems to have been confusing to some. You offer an interesting way to explain it, but seems that too could lead to confusion. I think it might be clearer to define an "equivalent hit" as a "damage effect." Each "damage effect" is rolled as a D12 on the WWII GUNFIRE DAMAGE table. Not a very sexy term, but perhaps more accurate. Thus, a larger shell hit is more likely to cause more "damage effects" on a smaller target, while it is likely to require several small shell hits to have a "damage effect" on a larger target class. At the risk of redundancy, "equivalent hits" or "damage effects" reflect functional damage to a target. There are many places where a ship can be hit, damaging or destroying compartments or superstructure, without having any functional effect on the target's armament, movement or sensor capacity. Early on in playtesting, we tried "dud" hit and various minor damage hit results. While captains obviously liked them when they were the object of an opponent's affection, they had to admit they just added to the actual time required to complete a Game Turn without any benefit. Thus, I streamlined the tables to simulate the probability of causing some functional damage on the target. Hence, damage effect is the result of a successful gunfire attack when boiled it down to the most basic level in simulation terms. The comments on this topic suggest my use of "equivalent hit" may be a straddle, but not necessarily a hit for everyone when shooting for understanding. Any thoughts on a "punchier" term which better conveys the idea of a functional "damage effect"?

#9 Martin Jerred

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:42 AM

I don't think you can use "damage effects" either as this conflates with the Gunfire Danage table.In effect you have 3 (or 4) tables to progress through: a) on target [current "to hit"] b) volume of damage [current "equivalent hits"] c) location/specifics of damage [current "damage table"]with an optional trip to: d) critical damageSo to make it crystal I think you need 3 distinct terms, not 2;hit-damage-damage-(critical) is just as bad as hit-hit-damage-(critical)reverting to straddle-hit-damage-(critical) has several advantages, not east that of familiarity.All that said it's a fairly minor point. Once it is explained in action most people seem to grasp it - it's just one of those stumbling blocks that seems to trip most newbies up.Zippee

#10 Radek Gozdek

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:04 AM

straddle-hit-damage-(critical) looks more cleat for me. Good idea.

#11 Lonnie Gill

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:41 PM

I'm sensing a pattern here. Any other votes?

#12 Jim O'Neil

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:19 PM

I think Zippee has made a sound point ... even I have had to stop and make sure of which sorts of hits we were referring to on occasion.




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